Again another prejudice, thinking that homosexuals need to come back to heterosexuality. It's pointless sending someone to the Antarctica to sell ice, so why try to take a person to a sexuality foreign to him.

So the only other alternative would be to assist the homosexual on to a sexuality that he is comfortable with, and teach him the ethics around that sexuality, and if he eventually goes back, (as you say) to heterosexuality, then he was'nt homosexual in the first place.
Studies have been made to determine the success rate of conversion counseling, which is a therapy designed to convert homosexuals into heterosexuals.

We had therapies such as: Recovered memory therapy, Multiple personality disorder treatment, There were also professionals who believed in Satanic ritual abuse which they claimed helped the vast majority of their clients recover memory of childhood Satanic ritual abuse, i.o.w they were believed to be "dukumed".

There is also Therapeutic touch therapy in which is believed that they can heal people by balancing energy patterns in their patient's body.
And then there are many other forms of aversion therapy / reparative therapy, that are now forbidden for psychologist to practice, simply because of its ineffectiveness. The need for accurate information on the long term results of reparative therapy is obviously of great importance.
So most therapists today counsel their clients to improve their self- esteem and accept their orientation as a fact of their lives.

The American Psychological Association publishes an undated brochure titled "Answers to Your Questions About Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality." They state:

"...many scientists share the view that sexual orientation is shaped for most people at an early age through complex interactions of biological, psychological and social factors."


"...psychologists do not consider sexual orientation for most people to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed."
"...homosexuality is not an illness, mental disorder or emotional problem."


"There is no evidence indicating that homosexuals are more likely than heterosexuals to molest children."

The American Medical Association (AMA) released a report in DEC-1994 which calls for "non-judgmental recognition of sexual orientation by physicians." They suggest that psychotherapy be directed to help homosexuals "become comfortable with their sexual orientation."

The Academy of Pediatrics and the Council on Child and Adolescent Health have also stated that homosexuality is not a choice and cannot be changed.

These are the views of skilled professionals who have done extensive studies and experiments on the subject. So if we still feel that we cannot accept their findings as authentic, then we really have to come up with something more substantial, if we still believe that homosexuals can be converted to heterosexuals, instead of mere emotional rhetoric.

We need to change our perception on homosexuality and get rid of the stereotype that a homosexual is a sodomite and that every homosexual is sexually active.

I don't think Muslims should respond to the subject at all if they haven't made the effort to inspect and understand it first. The very first command to the Nabi (s) was to read and to study.

A thorough study on the subject will then give us a basis from where we can make judgements. But to solely judge a situation on the basis of emotions is un-Islamic.

We need to then be open to debate about the subject and deal with it in a very rational way, especially because its a sensitive subject and because we are dealing with people, who have feelings and souls. As the Quran says:
"udh'u ilaa sabeeli rabbika bil hikma, wa mou'idhatil hasana, wa jaadilhum bil latee hiya ahsan."

"Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching, and employ means of discussion that are best."

Often people who deal with the subject irrationally and emotionally are probably the people who fear that they will have to question the authenticity of their own sexuality.
We must remember that homosexuality is not a condition unique to a specific kind of people. It can be your closeted father, brother or son. And just think of the hurt and the harm you are causing them with your insensitive remarks about homosexuals. And by doing this, instead of helping them to find themselves, you are pushing them further away into a life full of misery and inner turmoil.

I think the road ahead regarding the acceptance and understanding of homosexuality is still long, but if we allow ourselves to be open to things we do not understand, and not merely closing up because we are not comfortable with the subject, then I think we will be on the road to enlightenment as to what our purpose in life is and where we fit in, in this whole grand cosmic plan of Allah

Hello Ummah,

I think there are some postings missing here, perhaps retracted or erased by cyber gods. I have seen that happen in other places as well. It is disturbing but...onwards.

You have a unique perspective and I really like the argument that it is promiscuity not homosexuality that is the important factor. I also believe that promiscuous behavior is against God's law and morality. Such behavior denigrates the souls of both sexes and sexual orientation. I too know several homosexuals, one of whom is promiscuous and several couples who are faithful devoted partners who believe in God and morality.

the behavior of the promiscuous fellow seems very angry to me and he is an angry person in general. He does not submit to God, as he should. I keep having conversations with him and he keeps telling me I'm stupid to Believe but I keep trying. He is a good person in his heart and all he really wants is true love. Don't we all.
I recognize his lack of submission to God as a sin. I recognize his sort of 'rubbing his promiscuity in the face of those who value loving relationships' as a sin. He wants us to covet what he sees as his freedom. He doesn't understand that this is not freedom but slavery and this behavior will not result in love but only consensual rape. (odd that statement but that's how I see sex outside love)

I find it interesting that it is not the homosexual who is the sin under Islam but the act of sodomy. If homosexual partners are in a committed relationship, there will be no claims of sodomy by either. If a homosexual is promiscuous and doesn't submit, he/she flaunts this sodomite behavior and the behavior will be revealed for judgment.

Interesting. I grow ever more interested in this faith as I learn.

thank you all
sorry I didn't make fun of you Silent, but, I never have in reality just perhaps in your perception. I confront and debate, sorry if that makes you uncomfortable
Dawn

To Ummah

Welcome Aboard Dear Fellow!

You are an asset to this discussion Jazakallah.

Q Kindly let me know what could be the source of judgment of good and bad or right and wrong.....for the people of past....without such a comprehesive knowledge and insight....to help them decide about any given human action being in favour or against the nature/natural laws?

I am afraid some people who are not in favour of any specific religion might get a wrong impression of ISLAM!

Comment: Your approach is very genuine and rational with respect to what we call a sick society...while as far as I know ISLAM believes in "Prevention" which is spiritually more effective than a "Cure"



Silent

Silent...

I cannot tell anyone how to judge anything, I am not God. If you are asking about ETHICS, which is the term for natural law or judgment, then I would say that ethical judgment is based on what is good or better for the whole of the society.

I have found that when a person thinks correctly, ethics and morality become the same thing but, when they don't, they fight against one or the other, some times both.

in short...morality comes from God. If you do not have have an understanding of, and faith in God, you cannot have morals.

However, God, in His infinite wisdom and mercy, has given all things He created a natural sort of morality...one that can be employed without too much consideration or thought...this is ethics. All you require to be an ethical person is to see that certain things benefit society as a whole and certain things don't

thus: murder is immoral, it is also unethical.

however abortion is immoral but it is not unethical especially for secular people (unless you are a person of faith and morals)

ethics are not perfect because they are 'of this world'
morals ARE perfect because they are of God

the difficulty for imperfect humans living under perfect morality is that humans think they have to judge each other's degree of moral behavior.
judgment of morality and punishment for immorality is for God alone.

I don't know why you keep insisting I write that particular phrase over and over...what don't you understand about the concept? or are you probing MY understanding of the concept that judgment is for God alone? Is there something about your faith that tells you that God or Allah WANTS you to judge and condemn those you find to be immoral?
are you challenged by the imperfection of ethics as a moral person and feel you need to change something?

Dawn

To Dawn

I'm not judging anybody..we are examining posts of eachother..!

I understand what you say...I do..

The point I wanted to make throughout my posts is...

It's different to discuss something with regards to;
religion
happenenings
personality
problem..
Opinion....etc.

There's no harm in discussions..that's how we learn..that's how we grow...

I object only when 'something'..tries to find a way in a place where it doesn't 'belong'

We do .we don't do..we want to do ...we don't want to..do..is just HUMAN..isn't it..

but to me...it doesn't seem proper to drag the religion in to make justifications..on account of 'grammer'..

That's how every religion got polluted.

see....!

Sort of...

but I think religion is polluted by men who think they know or understand more about God because of religion than those without religion or with a different religion understand about God

I understand God. I love God. I know as much about God as you do despite my lack of knowledge about your religion.

I do not know your rules but I know the core values at stake. In the values we agree. In the rules, we may not.

this is why I'm told I am a Christian and a Muslim "at heart". I am both things because God is at my heart and He is at the heart of both religions.

ethics and morality are not grammatical diversions, they are two separate things...one of God's word...and one of this material world.
I have no qualms about judging the ethics of anything or anyone
but I will NEVER make a moral judgment against anyone or anything.

I will never hate but I will speak out when something is false or evil.

Dawn

Dawn ..if the way God has created us is different from what God is...then I dare say God is a Hypocrite..I beg his pardon...

I'm not judging anyone..who am I to do so..

May be you are better in His eyes and closer to Him. than me..

All I know is Humans are being under a continuous test..

A Sufi/Mystic person unites God and Human and claims he himself is a God because of the love...

A prostitute is fogiven for taking care of a dying dog as we studied in a tradition...

My common sense tells me that when we love someone ..we fear his/her anger..we start feeling a reponsibility of being faithful towards him/her.

I also feel that these 'un-natural trends' has ruined the respect of some very delicate and sweet relationships..

Propaganda of un-popular/in-decent attitudes have encouraged weak people to become more curious about it and explore.These things are ruining the peace of our societies...which is injustice..

Biologically..if 'science and religion' mix...then I dare say this very attitude doesn't mix ..with the nature or biology of 'humans'..and shouldn't be an option...

you said:
My common sense tells me that when we love someone ..we fear his/her anger..we start feeling a reponsibility of being faithful towards him/her.

my reply;

you think faith(fulness) is driven by fear of anger created by love?

do I have that correct?

You think that, when you love someone, you fear their anger if you cheat so that's what keep you faithful to them?

so, in speaking of Faith and God, you then think it is fear of God's response to being unfaithful that keeps you faithful to Him...
next topic;
as far as the mix of science and faith, its a natural pairing. When you do so, you get a sort of amazing grace, a deeper way of looking at things.

The alphabet contains all the knowledge of the universe in its letters except the knowledge of how to put it together. That knowledge resides in faith and God. Judging how my personal knowledge has increased since I found true faith, I can only assume He is delighted when faith is applied along side science.
sometimes I feel like He's a proud parent watching His children (in this case me) tinker with stuff while He looks on and occasionally encourages.

next topic;
God created us in His image....but, I look like a biological entity, which God is not.
God created my soul.I cannot see my soul, it is created of energy and light, just like God
Morals are all about the soul.
Ethic are for the biology.

there are things you can do with and to your biological entity that can and will harm your soul.
People get confused because the things that are most damaging to your soul often do nothing to your body. (lying, cheating, coveting, taking the Name of God in vain etc)
things that can do the most damage to your body do nothing to your soul (injury, illness, death)
you are charged with caring for both things and making both things as healthy as possible...towards this end, God gives us laws and rules for BOTH our physical selves and our souls. (ethics and morality)

it is not grammatical division. I understand this language is not your native tongue and I respect that. Are there two different words for God's laws of your soul and of your body in your language? Perhaps this difficulty is a matter of translation.

Dawn

So 'everything' is FAIR in LOVE and WAR!!!!!!!!!!The rest is the RELIGION.

Bye

"I find it interesting that it is not the homosexual who is the sin under Islam but the act of sodomy. If homosexual partners are in a committed relationship, there will be no claims of sodomy by either. If a homosexual is promiscuous and doesn't submit, he/she flaunts this sodomite behavior and the behavior will be revealed for judgment. " DAWN ?(04/01/10)

Hi Ummah!

What are your veiws about what Dawn wrote in her post

"If homosexual partners are in a committed relationship, there will be no claims of sodomy by either."

You stated: "All Islamic schools of thought and jurisprudence consider gay acts to be unlawful. The Companions of Prophet Muhammad held various views concerning punishment."

Response: My school of thought is this. What does the Qur'an tell us to do about gay acts? Isn't that what makes something Islamic? Or do the four Sunni schools of thought take precedence over what the Qur'an tells us as Muslims to do?

I also have an Islamic school of thought that is not sectarian but based on the Qur'an. To say "All Islamic schools of thought and jurisprudence consider..." is a faux pas in and of itself. By making these statements, I do not put myself on any sort of pededstal, but who made the authors of these schools of thought more superior than Allah's school of thought?

Nono

Yes even I do concur that Koran is the final testimony and they can be know thought more finer than Allah's school of thought…
Well I am not a scholar neither a professor just a student …so sorry if I did any slip-up

Can we be harsh on children if they commit adultry before there puberty

Adultery before puberty sounds like kids behaving like married adults....if you mean fornication which is also a mature, deliberate action , while I only feel that kids are mostly curious and try to explore, once exposed to any specific information, about such experiences of lewdness. If being a parent you already know it's happening then I feel you have a responsibilty to know the reason of it at first.
And being religious or Muslim, you must teach and train them of their self-respect and God's (Allah's) dislike about such indecent acts. Obviously such things happen due to lack of awareness and training of the religion. Mostly all the major religions condemn such actions. Otherwise it will lead to what's a visible cause of a failed western society which has put the religion behind their backs...and because of it they all are in 'back-gear' towards becoming 'animals'....again!

Question: Can we be harsh on children if they commit adultry before there puberty?

Response: We can do anything we want just about, but that does not make it right. I believe that if you teach children correct principles while growing up, they will grow up able to govern themselves just fine. Don't you agree? If you agree, then obviously, such a child who commits adultery before puberty should be at least allowed to take responsibility for his/her own actions as well. How else will such a child learn to think like the adult he/she anticipates becoming?

If he/she is very guilty and wanna repent then? how must we help them??

Repentance 'is' the solution. Allah is Most Merciful, Most -Forgiving. He says if someone who repents with true heart, is like the one who has never sinned.
We don't have to involve any third person between Allah and the person.
May Allah guide our children to the righteous lives and save them from all harms of body, mind and soul. Ameen.

So repentance not stoning????

Truth asked: So repentance not stoning????

Response: That's what the Qur'an suggests. In fact, I wish someone could show me where the Qur'an suggests stoning anyone for anything at all. Any takers of the challenge?

Truth asked: If he/she is very guilty and wanna repent then? how must we help them??

Response: There are only two things I recommend. 1) Continue setting the better example with humility. 2) Continue teaching correct principles with the natural consequences of actions kept in mind.

Q: What was the religion of Prophet Lut?
A: Muslim

Q: Why did God start this world with a Man and His Wife?
A: Is that confirmed in the Qur'an? Or is that assumption or mere speculation? So far I have found the Qur'an in direct agreement with Ancient texts like the Sumerian tablets, Chaldean, Akkadian, and Babylonian texts as regards creation. Adam and Eve, to my knowledge, were the eighth man and the eight woman to be genetically engineered by Enlil, Enki, and ninharsag with Allah's permission, but they were also the first pair to be genetically manipulated with procreating abilities with Allah's permission; however, this is not confirmed in the Qur'an, and there is nothing to my knowledge that contradicts that either. Yes, Adam being the father of homo sapiens and having communed with Allah personally first, was indeed the first prophet, but we also need to take into consideration that Adam is a a title before it is a name which means red soil or clay. Who Adam is or which Adam we are talking about is something we need to consider in regards to whether or not it is an actual Islamic subject. Kindly therefore provide me with the verse in the Qur'an that substantiates your claim that the world was indeed started "with a Man and His Wife." Then we might have something to go on. Thanks.

Silent requested: AoA NKingston..Kindly let me know the source of same-sex orientation from Quran plz...!Thx.

Response: There is nothing on the subject in the Qur'an, except for Lot having an aversion to it because of the "excessiveness," "overkill," or "lack of moderation" in the practice, but the overkill practices could have been more than just homosexuality. It could have been smoking too much marijuana or snorting too much cocaine. Whatever the case may have been, in Sodom and Gommorrha, there were wasteful practices of "What's practiced by us must be practiced by all." This wastefulness and overdoing things that did not apply to all is the reason the Anunnakis nuked the five cities while obliterating only two of them. They were a waste, so they were wasted.

Q: What does the word "shah-wa-tun" in Arabic mean?
Response: Please provide chapter and verse or the triliterate whether in Roman or Arabic so that I can answer your question. Thanks.

If you are referring to şahwatan, then you are referring to √şhw/y which means lust, yearn, a preference more than (something else) as in the following verse:

7:81 (1) “Indeed, you truly (1a) give the men to each other (1b) preference after the women, [Interpretation: (1) You really (1b) prefer (1a) the men with men (1b) rather than with the women.] (2) however, you are extreme (wasteful, excessive, immoral) people.”

إِنَّڪُمۡ لَتَأۡتُونَ ٱلرِّجَالَ شَہۡوَةً۬ مِّن دُونِ ٱلنِّسَآءِ‌ۚ بَلۡ أَنتُمۡ قَوۡمٌ۬ مُّسۡرِفُونَ (٨١)

81 (1) 'inna-kum la (1a) ta'tūna r-rijāla (1b) !*** şahwatan [√şhw,fa’latan, şahwah n.f. (pl. şahawat)] ***! Min Dūni An-Nisā' (2) Bal 'Antum Qawmun Musrifūna.

Q: What does 'Fa-hi-sha-tun' mean in Arabic?
Response: Please provide chapter and verse or the triliterate whether in Roman or Arabic so that I can answer your question. Thanks.

If you are referring to al-fāḥişata, then you are referring to √fḥş which means excessive, immoderate, enormous, exorbitant, overdo, beyond measure, etc. and has been "interpreted" to mean things such as perversion, foul, indecent, obscene, and so on; HOWEVER, I have not found these "interpretations" to coincide with the meaning of √fḥş as used during the time that the Qur'an was revealed. If you have any evidence to the contrary, kindly provide it. Thanks.

Charlene asked: If being gay is outlawed in every religion, why would it be accepted in Islam?
Response: What do laws of other religions have to do with any specific religion? Also, considering how many religions that exist in the world, what makes you think that every religion outlaws being gay? I know of a religion in India where being gay is considered a third gender. I also know of many Unitarian sects that believe being gay is acceptable in the eyes of God.

So please kindly let me know whether he/she is lawful for marry in future??

To Truth,

1-Stoning a child?
2-Marrying a child?

In Islam I don't find anything like it.

[60:12] O Prophet! when believing women come to you giving you a pledge that they will not associate aught with Allah, and will not steal, and will not commit fornication, and will not kill their children, and will not bring a calumny which they have forged of themselves, and will not disobey you in what is good, accept their pledge, and ask forgiveness for them from Allah; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

And let those who find no means of marriage keep themselves chaste, until ALLAH grants them means out of HIS bounty. And such as desire a deed of manumission in writing from among those whom your right hands possess, write it for them if you know any good in them; and give them out of the wealth of ALLAH which HE has bestowed upon you. And force not your maids into unchaste life by keeping them unmarried if they desire to keep chaste, in order that you may seek the gain of the present life. But if anyone forces them, then after their compulsion ALLAH will be Forgiving and Merciful to them

For someone spoiled , I mean adult , not a child , people say 'marry him/her', but I feel there must be a period o moral training , first.
(Mostly it happens when a child is 'neglected'. )

To NKingston.

49:13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

I wish you could leave behind the philosophy of other books, which is not approaved by the Quran, to think clearly.

....

I think you missed it in Ummah's post. I couldn't find the reference because two men ....were not clear , but it seems due to the nature of the previous Ayat 4:15, ...4:16 becomes clear, that it is about 'two men'.

4:15 And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

4:16 And as for the two (men) who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

................

To Dawn

Agreement of lewdness between two men and women means nohing if are not approaved/sanctioned by Allah.

To Silent:

49:13 O that which is the human beings! (1) Indeed, We created you from males and females, (2) and We produced for you nations (large tribes, collections) and tribes (clans, large family groups, as found in tribal communities, social groups consisting of people of the same race who have the same beliefs, customs, language, etc. and usually ruled by a chief) in order for you to be aware of each other. (3) Indeed, generosity before Allāh is your protection against evil. (4) Indeed, Allāh is Omniscient, Infinitely Informed. (*)

يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقۡنَـٰكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ۬ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلۡنَـٰكُمۡ شُعُوبً۬ا وَقَبَآٮِٕلَ لِتَعَارَفُوٓاْ‌ۚ إِنَّ أَڪۡرَمَكُمۡ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ أَتۡقَٮٰكُمۡ‌ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ۬ (١٣)

13. Yā ayyu-hā n-nāsu (1) innā xalaq-nā-kum min ṭakarin [gen., m., indefinite noun, ṭakar (pl. ṭukur)] wa unŧā [√anŧ, acc., f., pl., unŧa n.f. (pl. inaŧ)] (2) wa ja’al-nā-kum şu’ūban [√ş’b, şu'ub n.m. (pl. of şa'b)] wa qabā’ila [√qbl, qabil n.f. (pl. qaba'il)] li-ta’ārafū [√’rf ta+yatafā’alū, 2nd, m., pl., impf. act., Stem VI] (3) inna akrama-kum [√krm af’ala, 2nd, m., pl., poss. pron.] ‘inda (A)llāhi atqā-kum [√wqy, 2nd, m., pl., poss. pron.] (4) inna (A)llāha ‘alīmun xabīrun

This verse indeed tells us how mankind was born and how large tribes and clans were produced, but it does not speak of genetic evidence or anything Islamic to make homosexual tendencies unnatural, immoral, or wrong. Just because a person is gay does not mean they were never born neither does it mean that a person born of a man and a woman cannot be genetically gay. There is nothing Islamic in this verse that gives a pro or con against homosexuality. Neither does it provide evidence that Allah made a single man or a single woman. The words, however, are pluralized and may be used as indefinite pronouns as well. This means that there may have been many Adams and many Eves in the beginning before mankind started procreating on their own. It boils down to homosexuality not being an Islamic issue, pro or con.

The Qur'an does not approve or disapprove of any specific books. As far as other books go though, the Qur'an encourages us to be honest and to investigate all things. It even challenges us to prove the Qur'an to be true or false in an honest manner, so if other books have substantial information, then it is Islamic to utilize them where applicable and appropriately, but if the scientific findings in these "other" books do not relate to anything in the Qur'an, then the information has nothing to do with Islam, but reality outside the Qur'an. So far, however, I have not found the Qur'an to be controversial scientifically, spiritually, nor morally much less in any other way. It is quite in line with the laws of nature, the very laws set in motion by Allah. Everything I have ever read concerning verses from the Qur'an that has been considered controversial or a cause for apologetics for Islam have always proven to me that Islam shall never need apologetics, but those who are misinformed or who intentionally misinterpret, mistranslate, or take verses out of context need to repent.

Am I wrong? If so, please cross examine the stand I just made and kindly put me in my proper place.

Nono

To Silent:

Law of Women who Commit Lewdness

4:15 (1) That which brings the excessive (immoderate, enormous, exorbitant, overdone, beyond measure) among your women, (1a) then ask to witness upon them [the excessive women] four among you, (2) then if they witnessed, (2a) then detain them in the houses until (3) they attain the death (4) or Allāh makes for them ways [of better dealing with such matters]. (*)

وَٱلَّـٰتِى يَأۡتِينَ ٱلۡفَـٰحِشَةَ مِن نِّسَآٮِٕڪُمۡ فَٱسۡتَشۡہِدُواْ عَلَيۡهِنَّ أَرۡبَعَةً۬ مِّنڪُمۡ‌ۖ فَإِن شَہِدُواْ فَأَمۡسِكُوهُنَّ فِى ٱلۡبُيُوتِ حَتَّىٰ يَتَوَفَّٮٰهُنَّ ٱلۡمَوۡتُ أَوۡ يَجۡعَلَ ٱللَّهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلاً۬ (١٥)

15. (1) Wa llātī ya’tīna [√atw] l-fāḥişata min nisā’i-kum (1a) fa (i)staşhidū [√şhd istaf’ilū, 2nd, m., pl., impv., Stem X] ‘alay-hinna arba’atan min-kum (2) fa ‘in şahidū [fa’ilu] (2a) fa amsikū-hunna [√msk af’ilū, Impv., Stem IV] fīl-buyūti [√byt bayt n.m. (pl. buyūt)] ḥattā (3) yatawaffā-hunna [√wfy yatafa’’al, Impf. Act., Stem V] l-mawtu (4) aw yaj’ala llāhu la-hunna sabīlāan

An Alternative Means of Dealing with Abominations

4:16 (1) Those two who bring it among you, (1a) then you shall annoy [interpretation: persuade] them both (2) so that, if they repented and reformed (became suitable, were upright, were righteous, were people of integrity, were peacemakers), (2a) then you shall turn away from both of them. (3) Indeed, Allāh is the One who makes them repent and is always merciful. (*)

وَٱلَّذَانِ يَأۡتِيَـٰنِهَا مِنڪُمۡ فَـَٔاذُوهُمَا‌ۖ فَإِن تَابَا وَأَصۡلَحَا فَأَعۡرِضُواْ عَنۡهُمَآ‌ۗ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ ڪَانَ تَوَّابً۬ا رَّحِيمًا (١٦)

16. (1) Wa llaṭāni ya’tiyāni-hā min-kum (1a) fa āṭū-humā [√aṭy if’alū] (2) fa ‘in tābā [√twb fa’ala] wa aṣlaḥā [√ṣlḥ af’alā] (2a) fa a’riđū [√’rđ af’alū] ‘an-humā inna Allāha kāna tawwāban [√twb fa’’ālan, tawwāb, n., masculine, pl.] raḥīmān [√rhm fa’īlān]

These verses are why it is important for Muslims to turn to the Arabic always because "interpretations" of what the Qur'an says can often be misleading and translations are often biased in order for them to coincide with ahadiyth rather than accepting ahadiyth that are in harmony with the Qur'an. The verses you provided only encourage people to repent and get along, but if they don't repent and continue to be an annuisance to the general population, then, of course, put them under house arrest or detain them somehow so that they no longer cause havoc. The God of the Qur'an, Allah, is merciful, not vile like the Judeo-Christian god that is pounded on at the pulpit every Saturday and Sunday.

In Islam, we start each prayer and Surah of the Qur'an with "Bi-‘smi (A)llāhi r-Raḥmāni رحمن [fa’lāni, rahim n.m. sing. (pl. ruhāma)] r-Raḥīmi [al-fa’īli, rahman n.m. (always with the definite article)] رحيم." Shouldn't this have put people, including Muslim nations, on the merciful side of Islam a long time ago? Shouldn't this be proof enough to a submitter to Allah that we are called to be merciful and peacemakers just like Allah is with mankind?

If your child turned out to be homosexual, wouldn't you follow the merciful advice given in this verse as prescribed unbiasly directly from the Qur'an versus the interpretations provided to be in line with unreliable ahadiyth although such ahadiyth are in conflict with the Qur'an? Or would you subscribe to unreliable ahadiyth and act according to them although they are in conflict with the Qur'an in the case of stoning your own child? Inshallah, I would hope you would have more mercy on your child than that. Being a father, I could not imagine being so inhumane if my son or daughter turned out to be gay, and if I find out or found out that one of my children is indeed gay, I will always be his/her loving, humane, and trustworthy father. Pseudo-Muslim way of being stoned (literal punishment) is not kewl at all, but neither is the American way of being stoned (substance abuse).

Nono

Ummah stated: Firstly I need to reiterate that Orthodox Islamic scholars still view Homosexuality and Sodomy as one and the same thing. When Muslims think homosexuality, they think sodomy. So often, Ahaadith and Quranic Aayaat dealing with sodomy will be quoted to support the argument against Homosexuality.

Response: How can scholars be orthodox when orthodox refers to conforming to established doctrine. Orthodox Islamic doctrine is based soley on the Qur’ān. There is nothing "orthodox Islamic" without it being based on the Qur’ān, all else is just interesting information. To be an Orthodox Islamic scholar, you cannot base your Islamic beliefs on ahadith. That's ludicrous! That's also pseudo Islamic. Granted, for historical reference, ahadith may support the Qur'an, but the Qur'an is not to be dependent on ahadith in anyway. The Qur'an as with Islam stands on its own merit and needs no apologetics. As regards Islamic scholarship, show me something in the Qur’ān that supports the "orthodoxy" of "Orthodox Islamic scholars" who use ahadiyth as Allah's direct revelation and as having more authority than the Qur'an.

Ummah stated: So the Islamic viewpoint in terms of Usul-ul-Fiqh and Shariah, on this case is, that...

Response: False doctrine. The viewpoint of anyone or anything outside the Qur’ān is not Islamic unless it is supported by the Qur’ān. No argument suffices in Islam if it is not based on soley the Qur'an. If it is not an issue found in the Qur'an, then obviously it must not, therefore, be an Islamic issue as with the subject of homosexuality.

Ummah stated: So there is no basis in Islam for punishing or condemning a person who admits he/she is homosexual.

Response: Period. The rest of that paragraph is useless because there is no support in the Qur’ān wherein we receive instructions from Allah to punish homosexuals for being homosexuals, regardless of what you call an act that a homosexual does. Besides, where does the Qur’ān talk about witnesses to penetration in a homosexual act? I look forward to seeing that passage! No pun intended, my gay Muslim brothers. Bottom line, homosexuality is not an Islamic subject matter.

Silent said: World population is 6780 million, out of them 340 million people speak English as their first language...

Response: What do statistics have to do with what is Islamic? What is in the Qur'an is Islamic. As for Arabic being my second language, I welcome criticism of my translations and interpretations of the Qur'an from anyone who speaks Arabic as their primary language. I have never been concerned about being corrected and I am still not concerned about being corrected. With Arabic being your second language, Urdo apparently being a related language, what conflict do you find with my translations and interpretations so far? Please advise, but, unless you have something to contribute such as criticism or correction, I doubt that you are in a position to suspect one way or another the reliability of what you say is doubtful. Maybe you can find someone whose primary language is Arabic whose English is expert enough to make corrections to what I have translated so far? The invitation has remained open since day one and will always remain open.

Silent and nkingston
thanxx for your feedback and for helping me ...

To Truth

My pleasure , if I had been of any help to you. God bless. :)

.........

To Nkingston (Nono ..Not again!)

Don't worry I would be the first one to discard anything that goes against the teachings of the Quran and Common Sense, and would be the last one to accept anything from anyother source, for the same reason.

For some Ayaat in Quran TRANSALTING is a real challenge and one has to be very CAREFULL.

I avoided going into the translations of 'Fahishatun' and 'Shahwatun' at all because it will be a waste of time if you are stuck at your translation and are refusing to accept the motive of the Ayat. Arabic language has its own pecularities, just like other languages and saying something is always related to the subject matter and the situation and its 'importance', of-course.

I 'personally' will not take account for other crimes as to be very important so that the story of LUT becomes a SIGN in Allah's eyes except that crime should have been of a very peculiar nature , a real dislike to the Creator, which according to me is quite obvious by this;

26:165 Aa aatunaz-zukaraana = You approach men
26:166 Wa Tazaroona = and leave/abandon
Ma khal-ka la-kum =What has been created for you
Min Azwaajikum = in your spouse (wives obviously)

Sorry, NK I'll not go any furthur to justify HOMOSEXUALITY.
I don't find any GENETIC SIGNIFICANCE OR EVIDENCE for this TENDENCY with respect to the BIOLOGICAL (Creative) aspects of HUMAN BEINGS. There are no reasons why/how should a man copulate with a man, or woman with a woman, other than taking really shamful options dishonouring the HUMANS for whom ANGELS once PROSTRATED.Similarly there is no rationality in making such relationships LEGAL because of their INSIGNIFICANCE from the 'reproductive' view-point.(editted)

We humans have limitations in our relationships of being brothers, sisters, friends, mother and son, father and daughter, etc...I would say again , everything is fair in love and war..and the rest is the Religion.

I will request you to come out of your 'cultural' background and give a thought to what is acceptable (Al-Maaroof) for a majority of humanbeings, and leave alone that narrow option of the modern society for the spiritually blind-beings. Thanks!!!

S.

............

ADDITION: (For Nono )

If 4:15 is for women and 4:16 is ALSO for women then it's a mere repetition.
If 4:15 is for women and then 4:16 is for two who commits adulery then the punishment of adultery is not what is described there.It becomes contradictory to the Quranic teachings, then.
And women does NOT mean WIFES, always.
Then comes the option of fornication between a man and a woman OR MAN and MAN...
Do you think between man and woman it is a SIN but between MAN and MAN it is just OKAY?????????????????????

( I except your thoughful REPLY , ONLY...otherwise It's my final post, seriously!)

adulator or adulterous is not lawful for Muslims ...so if child before puberty commits adultery then..whether they are lawful or not in future for marriage??

Truth, A child is a child. If he/she is an Adult then it's fornictaion. If married people commits fornication , it's referred as Adultery. Now you justify what you want to justify according to the information you have. And YES , everyone is lawful to marry, whether he/she is a law-obeying Muslim or not. This is the way of Allah. That's what He has ordained.TO MARRY!AND TO MARRY IS BEING LAWFUL.

Silent said: I avoided going into the translations of 'Fahishatun' and 'Shahwatun' at all because it will be a waste of time if you are stuck at your translation and are refusing to accept the motive of the Ayat. Arabic language has its own pecularities, just like other languages and saying something is always related to the subject matter and the situation and its 'importance', of-course.

Response: Qur'an 16:103

16:103 (1a) Most certainly We know that they say, (1b) “Only human beings teach it.” (2a) Tongues (Languages) which distort it (2b) speak Arabic imperfectly (speak Arabic as an imperfect second language), (3) and these tongues [languages] are a clear Arabic language. (*)

وَلَقَدۡ نَعۡلَمُ أَنَّهُمۡ يَقُولُونَ إِنَّمَا يُعَلِّمُهُ ۥ بَشَرٌ۬‌ۗ لِّسَانُ ٱلَّذِى يُلۡحِدُونَ إِلَيۡهِ أَعۡجَمِىٌّ۬ وَهَـٰذَا لِسَانٌ عَرَبِىٌّ۬ مُّبِينٌ (١٠٣)

103. (1a) Wa laqad na’lamu anna-hum yaqūlūna (1b) innamā yu’allimu-hu basharun (2a) lisānu llaṭī yulḥidūna [√lḥd] ilay-hi (2b) a’jamiyyun (3) wa hāṭā lisānun ‘arabiyyun mubīnun

Interpretation: Arabic as a second language is not an excuse for not understanding the Qur'an because, according to this verse I present, the Qur'an was given in a clear Arabic language. Being my second language, I put this verse to the test as interpreted by other translators. The verse is correct. Qur'anic Arabic is indeed precise, intentional, and clear. It is also easy to understand as the many Muslim schools I have visited stated it was. I took the challenge, and the challenge proved the Qur'an and the faith of these fellow Muslims teaching Arabic language at their schools to be correct again.

This brings us to the next thought that you presented that took my interest.

---

Silent said: I will request you to come out of your 'cultural' background and give a thought to what is acceptable (Al-Maaroof) for a majority of humanbeings, and leave alone that narrow option of the modern society for the spiritually blind-beings. Thanks!!!

Response: If all the world was disobeying the will of Allah, does that make it right to join the majority? Noah even was in the minority before the flood drowned all but his family and the descendants of Cain who were found still living normal lives after the flood and who were not in the ark.

Until someone proves to me that what I believe is a false doctrine, why would I choose to join the majority? That's pretty illogical, don't you think? I, on the other hand, recommend you get off the band wagon, and start following what the Lord provided for us to know in the Qur'an. Otherwise, you're just as guilty of denying the Signs of Allah as those who do it blatantly whether in the name of Allah or not. Don't you agree? If not, I am open to correction as always.

Truth asked: If he/she is very guilty and wanna repent then? how must we help them??

Response: As I stated before, continue setting a good example and teaching correct principles.

I agree to your recent post, Nono. What's ahead?
Language is not an excuse, yes and majority and minority means nothing ,it's how rational/logical is one's opinion/action.

Do you agree to what I wrote about Homosexuality in general, about "men approaching men instead of their wives" and about 4:15, 4:16 interpretation?

If you don't know what logical ground you have? If you have nothing logical then I would only call it your personal decision and would like to cease the arguments, here. Thanks.

Silent said: I agree to your recent post, Nono. What's ahead?
Language is...

Response: My argument is this: Homosexuality is not an Islamic subject matter. I still maintain that homosexuality is not an Islamic subject matter until I find something from the Qur'an that makes it so. Outside of that, it's all external speculation of those who believe otherwise no matter how they twist and turn and attempt to see what is not in the Qur'an as being in the Qur'an that is not in the Qur'an. That means that the claim made that it is indeed an Islamic subject matter places the burden of proof on the shoulders of those who claim that homosexuality is indeed an Islamic subject matter. That also means in turn so far that no one has presented any basis for any claim other than what I have presented so far and that it's time to call the kettle black.

Where do we go from here? you ask. We are called to be patient, merciful, and kind to those with homosexual tendencies until the Lord sends another Prophet with the imprint of the Prophets to clarify the matter with another recitation of the direct Word of Allah. Until then, we are also called to repent for trying to take the ملك يوم الدين "maliki yawmi d-dīni" away from Allah.

Now I feel you have lost your common reasoning power, because you can't understand the "Perfect Messege" of Allah as He claimed and are waiting for a prophet to show you the "ways of Islam". Pity!

The Quran's way is not like points 1, 2,3..and so forth....Its style is synchronized and very systematic according to different situations and aspects. People like you who are after finding the words HOMOSEXUALLITY , GAYISM, LESBIANISMS are nothing less than fools who are trying to find HIJAB AND NIQAB in the Quran.Or who think (I have read it at a forum) that covering the head is Un-Islamic because it's not clear in the Quran.What if a lady dyes her hair red and wears diamond ear-rings and necklaces and just cover her bossom, because she is not supposed to cover the head.But then she is dis-obeying this command 'Do not display your ornaments/beauty.
Similarly what if a women of 'your society' only wears her undergarments to cover some specific areas in public, after reading your "translation" which I've discussed under Hijab topic.She can also say "normal clothing" is not mentioned, how would she predict that Quran is talking about the outer-covering. Silly ...isn't it? No Don't answer...thanks!There's also an Ayat that tells that older women can relax their dresscodes and take-off their "garments", since OUTER is not written so should it be taken she can wander NUDE?
No Don't answer...thanks!

So , obviously you are not considering ANYTHING from Quran and are 'blaming' us for twisting and turning the meanings of the words, verses or situations. It's not the language problem, either, but the matter of your owm EGO,as I can see. You claim to be a 'progressive' Muslim and somethimes such progressions results in giving a room for other's transgressions.

I don not intend to discuss this matter any furthur with you.You have all kind of lame excuses and not the straight answers for what I've asked you. I feel discussing such un-important/un-worthy tendencies with respect to Allah's creation and His words is an offence to the PURPOSE OF HUMANITY for people with narrow options.

Thanks a lot!

Bye.

Another Reference:

هُوَ ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَكُم مِّن نَّفۡسٍ۬ وَٲحِدَةٍ۬ وَجَعَلَ مِنۡہَا زَوۡجَهَا لِيَسۡكُنَ إِلَيۡہَا‌ۖ فَلَمَّا تَغَشَّٮٰهَا حَمَلَتۡ حَمۡلاً خَفِيفً۬ا فَمَرَّتۡ بِهِۦ‌ۖ فَلَمَّآ أَثۡقَلَت دَّعَوَا ٱللَّهَ رَبَّهُمَا لَٮِٕنۡ ءَاتَيۡتَنَا صَـٰلِحً۬ا لَّنَكُونَنَّ مِنَ ٱلشَّـٰكِرِينَ (١٨٩)

7:189 HE it is Who created you from a single soul and made therefrom its mate(wives/spouse), that he might find comfort in her. And when he knows her, she bears a light burden and goes about with it. And when she grows heavy, they both pray to ALLAH, their Lord, saying, `If thou gives us a good child, we will surely be of the thankful.'

...AND MADE ITS 'MATE', THAT 'HE' MIGHT COMFORT IN 'HER'....

وَمِنۡ ءَايَـٰتِهِۦۤ أَنۡ خَلَقَ لَكُم مِّنۡ أَنفُسِكُمۡ أَزۡوَٲجً۬ا لِّتَسۡكُنُوٓاْ إِلَيۡهَا وَجَعَلَ بَيۡنَڪُم مَّوَدَّةً۬ وَرَحۡمَةً‌ۚ إِنَّ فِى ذَٲلِكَ لَأَيَـٰتٍ۬ لِّقَوۡمٍ۬ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ (٢١)

30: 21And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates (wives/spouse)from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.

وَٱللَّهُ جَعَلَ لَكُم مِّنۡ أَنفُسِكُمۡ أَزۡوَٲجً۬ا وَجَعَلَ لَكُم مِّنۡ أَزۡوَٲجِڪُم بَنِينَ وَحَفَدَةً۬ وَرَزَقَكُم مِّنَ ٱلطَّيِّبَـٰتِ‌ۚ أَفَبِٱلۡبَـٰطِلِ يُؤۡمِنُونَ وَبِنِعۡمَتِ ٱللَّهِ هُمۡ يَكۡفُرُونَ (٧٢)

16:72 And ALLAH has made for you mates (wives spouse)from among yourselves, and has made for you, from your mates, sons and grandsons, and has provided you with good things. Will they then believe in that which perishes and deny the favour of ALLAH ?

SO MATES ARE SPOUSES (HALAL) TO REPRODUCE.

Azwajukum : Your mates,spouses, wives

SO HOMOSEXUALITY IS SIN AND THERE'S NO LEGAL UNION FOR THEM CALLED MARRAIGE, CAN BE HALAL/ALLOWED ACCORDING TO THE QURAN.

Silent said: I don not intend to discuss this matter any furthur with you.You have all kind of lame excuses and not the straight answers for what I've asked you. I feel discussing such un-important/un-worthy tendencies with respect to Allah's creation and His words is an offence to the PURPOSE OF HUMANITY for people with narrow options.

Response: Kindly show me how I have ever twisted, turned, or misused the Qur'an. I have given my translation. I have presented the context as I see it. Your role now is to put my translation, interpretation in context. So far, you and no one else has been able to take the Arabic in context to contradict what I have presented. I am always open to correction as I have stated numerous times since I first began. If my memory serves me right, there have been one or two times where I demonstrated that.

When it comes to my perspective on homosexuality and nudism being a non-Islamic subject, if you or anyone else has anything contrary to prove other wise, once again, I am still open to correction. You have not provided that. Instead, you, without merit, give twisted interpretations of the Qur'an to make a case that does not exist.

Kindly prove your case. Thanks.

Nono

NKingston (Nono), I've provided some more Ayaat in my post above.Which clearly support the case why Prophet LUT showed disgust upon males approaching males , leaving there wives , the natural "mates' Allah has created according to Allah's own CLAIM IN QURAN.

I think The light of the Quran is 'visible' to even a blind , who can't read or translate the langauge but can SEE from his/her heart.

If you are not convinced, I have no intention to convince you. I did it in hope that may be it will help other 'American-Muslims' who claim to be Muslim , and can very well translate the word Muslim, yet are not trying to understanding the meaning of this simple word.

I feel personal efforts like prayers, fasting etc...one do or neglect...have nothing to do with anyone else in the society but such deluded beliefs can ruin the face of Allah's Religion, no doubt.

If Islam is spreading 'leaps and bound' in America on account of such make-beliefs, (which to me are not very different from Dr. Sahbbir's new version of Islam) then I'm afraid a DISEASE IS SPREADING , NOT ISLAM!

Next time whenever you discuss this issue with others, at least don't hide all the above references, in hope that someone might SEE THE DIFFERENCE.

Thanks a lot!

S.

To Silent:

I'm not hiding anything, but is Islam about tyranny against those who do not interpret the Qur'an as you do or who do not jump on the band wagon of "majority rules" thinking? I don't see any other disease than the tyranny of those who justify with the Qur'an the slamming of two planes into the World Trade Center. I do not apologize for not supporting terrorists who justify their actions by intentionally taking the Qur'an out of context or using ahadiyth as well to justify their actions.

I am open to criticism, correction, and discussion still, but you have not provided anything of real merit as being Islamic doctrine on the areas we differ. The difference between my Islam and your Islam is the fact that my Islam depends on the direct Word of Allah; your Islam, however, is based on culture, personal opinion, tyranny against those who do not accept your ideologies, and random interpretations of the Qur'an that suit your needs rather than what tell you like Allah meant it.

I truly do not care about what the majority believes, but I do care about what the Word of Allah says and means. I do realize that my form of thinking is not acceptable in the eyes of many Muslims, but that is because I base my beliefs on the Word of Allah, not mullahs, scholars, culture, specific schools of thoughts, or opinionated ideologies. To go against the Word of Allah, or to insert doctrine not purported by the Word of Allah is a false Islamic doctrine. I do not support anything that rejects the Signs of Allah. That's what makes me a true Muslim.

Cheers, dear!

Nono

Where is the reference to homosexuality in the verses you present? This is how man and woman first had sex and made babies... Allah made mates for mankind... so? What does this prove against homosexuality?
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7:189 (1) He is the One who created you from one soul. (2) From it, He made a mate to live with him. (3) Then when she made him (the man, obviously) cover her (with) a light burden, she took on the responsibility of it. [In other words, when she seduced him to lay on top of her, she became pregnant.] (4) When overburdened, they called on Allāh, their Designer (Lord, Developer, Master, Architect, Teacher). (5) (Praying:) “We would appreciate it if you delivered us a useful child.” (*)

هو الذى خلقكم من نفس وحدة وجعل منها زوجها ليسكن اليها فلما تغشىها حملت حملا خفيفا فمرت به فلما اثقلت دعوا الله ربهما لىن ءاتيتنا صلحا لنكونن من الشكرين

189 (1) huwa l-laṭī xalaqa-kum min nafsin wāḥidatin (gen.) (2) wa ja’ala min-hā zawja-hā li-yaskuna 'ilay-hā (3) fa lammā tağaşşāhā [stem ii: tafa’’la of غشى+hā] ḥamalat ḥamlāan xafīfāan (light burden, accs) famarrat bi-hi (4) fa lammā 'aŧqalat da`awā (A)llāha rabba-humā (5) la'in 'ātaytanā şāliḥāan la nakūnanna mina aş-şākirīna
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30:21 From His Signs that He created for you among yourselves are mates in order for you to be a security to her. He makes sincere affection and mercy between you. Indeed in that are sure signs in order for people to consider. (*)

وَمِنۡ ءَايَـٰتِهِۦۤ أَنۡ خَلَقَ لَكُم مِّنۡ أَنفُسِكُمۡ أَزۡوَٲجً۬ا لِّتَسۡكُنُوٓاْ إِلَيۡهَا وَجَعَلَ بَيۡنَڪُم مَّوَدَّةً۬ وَرَحۡمَةً‌ۚ إِنَّ فِى ذَٲلِكَ لَأَيَـٰتٍ۬ لِّقَوۡمٍ۬ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ (٢١)

21. Wa min āyāti-hi an xalaqa la-kum min anfusi-kum azwajan li-taskunū [√skn] ilay-hā wa ja’ala bayna-kum mawaddatan wa raḥmatan inna fī ṭālika la āyātin li-qawmin yatafakkarūna [√fkr]
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16:72 Allāh produced mates for you among yourselves and produced for you from your mates children and grandchildren. He provided you from the pleasant things. So do they believe in falsehood and they reject the blessings of Allāh? (*)

وَٱللَّهُ جَعَلَ لَكُم مِّنۡ أَنفُسِكُمۡ أَزۡوَٲجً۬ا وَجَعَلَ لَكُم مِّنۡ أَزۡوَٲجِڪُم بَنِينَ وَحَفَدَةً۬ وَرَزَقَكُم مِّنَ ٱلطَّيِّبَـٰتِ‌ۚ أَفَبِٱلۡبَـٰطِلِ يُؤۡمِنُونَ وَبِنِعۡمَتِ ٱللَّهِ هُمۡ يَكۡفُرُونَ (٧٢)

72. Wa (A)llāhu ja’ala la-kum min anfusi-kum azwājan wa ja’ala la-kum min azwāji-kum banīna wa ḥafadatan wa razaqa-kum mina ţ-ţayyibāti a-fa bil-bāţili yu’minūna wa bi-ni’mati (A)llāhi hum yakfurūna

AND THERE'S NO PROOF OF HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE QURAN,EITHER. THE REST IS YOUR ASSUMPTION AND PERSONAL INTEREST. LET A THIRD-PERSON BE A WITNESS TO ALL THE DISCOURSE WE HAD. PEACE!S. BYE NOW!

Silent said: AND THERE'S NO PROOF OF HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE QURAN,EITHER. THE REST IS YOUR ASSUMPTION AND PERSONAL INTEREST. LET A THIRD-PERSON BE A WITNESS TO ALL THE DISCOURSE WE HAD. PEACE!S. BYE NOW!

Response: THAT IS MY WHOLE POINT! NO THIRD PARTY IS NECESSARY IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE QUR'AN. THE QUR'AN IS THE ONLY HADITH AND SHARIAH THAT APPLIES TO ISLAM.

Silent also said: AND THERE'S NO PROOF OF REMAINING CLOTHELESS IN THE QURAN,EITHER. THE REST IS YOUR ASSUMPTION AND PERSONAL INTEREST. LET A THIRD-PERSON BE A WITNESS TO ALL THE DISCOURSE WE HAD. PEACE! S. BYE NOW!

Response: Response: THAT IS MY WHOLE POINT! NO THIRD PARTY IS NECESSARY IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE QUR'AN. THE QUR'AN IS THE ONLY HADITH AND SHARIAH THAT APPLIES TO ISLAM.

The same as the gay population among Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists or the priests of the star religion of the ancient Egyptians.

Except for the extremists. They're 100% homosexual.