Islam
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replied to:  NKingston
mvastano6164
Replied to:  As-Salaamu Alay-Kum, Mike. You said: NONO, Will you not desist...
Nono, Keep a civil tong or do you lack self control. Someone who claims to be god's son should not be using such foul language! And don't insult god or my intelligence by abusing me with unholy language in one breath and calling me your brother in the next breath. It only goes to show how shallow you really are!
Now you say things that you really know nothing about and I would like to bring you up to speed on the following:
You say.You exclaimed:
Christ is lord of Glory ,Incarnate God!!!
You make this exclamation, and yet your own Scriptures do not assign deification to Jesus Christ, and certainly your own Scriptures do not incarnate God into Jesus. According to your own Scriptures, that is blasphemy. In your own Scriptures in a chapter that is very historically wrong,

Now remain calm and I will relate the biblical texts that verify the incarnation, crucifixing and the resurrection of Christ.
John1:1 In the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god. Here we have a revelation of the prexistent Christ.

John 1:12 And the word became flesh and dwelt among us as the only begotton of the father. (Referring to the incarnation of Christ)
The greek word for the word BEGOTTON is defined in the greek as having no beginning origin.

I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. This again refers to the incarnation.

I Corintnians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; This was the message of the first century church.

2 Corinthians 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself ...
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Here when it says "In Christ " It means just that, God was in Christ.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Here Jesus says it plainly, he is the resurrection.

Hewbrews 1:1-8 This is the historical significance of the incarnation. This text proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that christ is in fact God himself.

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I made thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
This verse is stating that Christ was not created but is identical with the father!

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Remember the OT says that God will not share his glory with another. But here and elsewhere we see Christ being worshipped.
Also >John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the ...
with the glory which I had with thee before the world was-

7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Mike
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replied to:  Silent
Silent
Replied to:  I've combined the two posts together (above) ................................................ Quran came...
Using this space to write what came to my mind lately..

According to New Testment-The holy book of MV

1-The bones of his carnated god were not broken.
2-He was taken down after a short period of time which certainly make his death on cross, doubtful.

Q: Did he avail some advantage because of the Roman authorities as Pilate (Palatoos) washed his hands off-the responsibility of death of an innocent?

3- Blood and water came out from the ribs on piercing by a Roman soldier'spear.

Q:What does it mean?

4-The 'grave' was not a grave..as it's meant to be, increasing the chances of survival.

Q:One account of all of the above facts. does it mean..?

Q: God wanted to save Jesus's life with the 'same' body?

,or

God was unable to 'resurrect' him with broken bones?

....................................................
Note: I know MV will never be able to find these answers as he is loaded with information and intellect..but lacks a sense...called "common sense".
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replied to:  Silent
Silent
Replied to:  Using this space to write what came to my mind lately.....


I really can't understand the meanings of such sacrifices before GOD?

Q: Is our God a 'God of Pagans'?
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replied to:  Silent
Silent
Replied to:  I really can't understand the meanings of such sacrifices...
To NK

I haven't read your posts yet...I could not reply earlier..sorry I was busy..

Ive not read MV's posts either..

Still

I will request you to be CAREFUL..again. This person is twisting the 'facts' a lot...leave him alone now..

1- He wants to believes in the New Testment in a different way which will NEVER AGREE with the Old laws

2- He is Insulting Quran and Muhammad s.a.w. yet He is 'misusing' what is written in Quran, at the same time

.........................................

I will find a way to contact you..or you find a way to contact me , safely Inshallah..

Wassalam

I need to go now..will check what he is upto...later..

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replied to:  mvastano6164
NKingston
Replied to:  To whom Am I Writing? You are asking the following: 1-How...
Re: the post that began as follows.

To whom Am I Writing?
You are asking the following:
1-How can God interrupt the continuity of the SAME MESSAGE by...
-----
You wrote:
#1> Jesus was sent before Mohemet was he not? As i see it the message was complete and not in need of any futher clarification.
Response: You think? Where is the gospel or writings that Jesus wrote himself? You will say that he wrote nothing. I will tell you that in time that the bank in Jerusalem will release the two documents that were written by the hand of Jesus himself. Those two documents are being protected to avoid international catastrophes among Christians. Nevertheless, the Qur'an was primarily written for Jews and Christians because they clouded up the original revelations from Allah that were sent to them. Meanwhile, the Christologist, the spiritual descendants of Paul, never had the message of the Messenger Jesus in the first place.

You wrote:
2>What is you take on the trinity? What are we to make of statements that christ made like," I and my father are one". or " He who has seen me has seen the father", and " The works that I do is the father who works in me". There are more but what do you think about these statements of christ?

Response: We've already discussed this in other posts already. As for the statements of Christ per the New Testament, are we to assume by the statement below that the godhead of the Christians consists of all people deified as sharing deification with Allah?

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17:21)

I haven't been able to find the passage that reads something like, "The father and I are one, therefore be ye one also," but I am certain that it's somewhere in the New Testament but I can't find it right now.

In context to the passage you quoted, sure, when you see a Messenger of Allah at work, you see the work of the Father. However, even though a person is seen doing the work of the father, that does not make that person God incarnate. It just means that you are seeing what represents the Father.

Peace out.

Nono
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replied to:  NKingston
Silent
[POST DELETED]
Thanks NK for the compliment..Thanks for reminding me of the misery MV's incarnated god showed in his prayer..elli elli lama sabacthleni..O my God why you for-sake me/left me at the time of torture...

Q: Why was MV's god praying?????????????
Q: Whom MV's god was praying to, if he himself was god?
Q: How could his Father God be so indifferent to His only Son/Spirit/Word?

I could never understand why Christians have been so injust to such a holy person who died for them ..that they cannot stop making his pictures and statues being tortured.
If he was saved 'somehow' why can't they take him down the cross...for God's sake...!

( Well they are ready to make cartoons of Muhammad s.aw. as they know we don't make statues or pictures of holy personalities..a mischief!)

Also NK.. did you notice the mischief of such Christians like MV..they fore-sake Muslims for the the love of Jesus alaihisalaam..and try to take advantage..this is how many false beliefs about Jesus a.s. have found their way into Muslim's faith and it's becoming difficult to handle those false concepts because of Muslims 'stubborness',these days.

They say he was father-less miraculous being+given many divine miracles+raised to heavens(sky)= GOD/GODLY (as it should result into..(Mathematical proof ha!)
..the only difference is that they don't say Jesus was God or the son of God ..what a pity!!!!!!!

(I'll discuss it later)
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replied to:  NKingston
mvastano6164
[POST DELETED]
Nono,Nono, Lets be civil to one another and maybe we can find some middle ground for what each of us believes. Lets be diplomatic about it. There is way too much distrust and those outside of our initial correspondences fear the worse case scenarios about my motives. As you read what follows remember that I am opening my heart on this matter so be objective enough to read it without getting angry and then after you are done you can disagree with it and forget about the whole matter and I will humbly bow out of this debate.
Let us reason together the lord says in Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD ..."Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red ... and he will forgive all their sins, no matter how many or great. We are endowed with reason and as such let us behave in a manner in which will please our God. I say our god because I believe that there is only one god. . I believe that with all my heart. You apparently are interested in obeying God as I am and what remains to be worked out may be our finite inability to come to terms with what we may both be saying. You call him Allah and I see that this is a reference to the ancient name given to Abrahams and others. Now my theology is Christian based and as such I am coming from a much different tradition than you are. You may not agree but when it comes down to the nitty gritty of it all my understanding is evolutionary. Let me explain my reasoning. When Abram was called out of his pagan world to enter into a foreign land he did not know where he would finally end up but he obeyed that calling because he was looking for a better country than the one he was living in. The Lord had said to Abram, 'Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.'" I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." (Gen. 12:1-3). Because he obeyed this calling God was pleased with his faith and awarded him righteousness based on faith. As time passed the original word for God, “EL” took on greater and greater significance and additions to the tile El were added on to signify different meanings. For example El was evolutionary in becoming Elohim meaning people of God. It can have its entomology in various sources even in the ancient Canaanites religion where El is the chief deity in the pantheon . I am sure you are aware of this and it is evident that is signification in various cultures show it to be understood as the name for the divine being. Now I believe that the continuation of God’s revelation took on more and more structure for Abram became Abraham on account of his particular work of faith. That work of faith called him to sacrifice his one and only son. This is the second act of faith as it were that god required of Abram to determine whether or not he would follow through. It was in fact god’s way of proving whether Abram would be of any real further use to him. If you recall Abram was not quite as trustworthy in some areas of his life he as one might think. He was known at times to seek to save his own hide when necessary like when he secretly held back from Pharaoh that his wife was his sister! God needed to know for sure if Abram would be the archetype figure he was looking for in bringing to fruition the final realization of the nation of Israel. After he passed the test God said, “ Now I know Abram that you fear me and he once again accounted him righteous. After Abraham died Isaac bore Jacob and Jacob bore sons and one named Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers and to make a long story short brought his father and brothers into the land of Egypt. Times changed for the worse for the Israelites after Joseph died and they were forced into slavery by the Egyptians. Eventually , Moses was called by God and God spoke to him out of a burning bush. God told Moses that He was going to deliverer his son (Israel) out of the hand of Pharaoh. Moses refused several times citing reasons for not wanting to be gods spokesman and finally God gave in and called his brother Aaron to go with him as a helper. To be sure it was the miraculous acts of god that finally brought about the release of the Israelites. With the Angle of death at everyone’s door it was only the blood of a lamb painted onto the door lintels that kept the firstborn alive and so all the firstborn of Egypt died. Pharaoh relented. Moses brought the Israelites out and across the red sea and the nations around them heard of that great exodus. Forty years God strove with these people and you know the story of how many were destroyed because of their unbelief. Finally , after God had cleansed his house of that generation he allow Joshua to lead their children into the promised land. Before they left Moses said that God would raise up another deliverer like himself who would deliverer for all time gods children. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you,
from your brothers - it is to him you shall listen. (Deut 18:15)
In this verse we find the only passage in the entire Torah where Moses explicitly identifies himself as a prophet of the LORD. Moreover, this is also the only passage where Moses identifies the coming of the Messiah as "a Prophet like me" (Deut 18:15; cp. John 6:14). In the New Testament we read that the scribes had sent a delegation to question Yochanon the Immerser (John the Baptist), asking him two questions:
"Are you Elijah?" (John 1:21) - This referred to Malachi's prophecy (Mal. 4:5) that Elijah would come as a messenger before the appearance of the Messiah. To this day Jews around the world still set out a cup of wine for Elijah at Passover - in anticipation of the his arrival as the forerunner of the Messiah.
"Are you the Prophet?" (John 1:21). This referred to Moses' prophecy that God would send "a Prophet like me" (Deut. 18:15-19).
We further read that when Philip encountered Nathaniel, he said, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote - Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph" (John 1:45). After Jesus fed the five thousand, the people began to ask if this was "the Prophet who is to come into the world" (John 6:14). Peter identified Yeshua as the Prophet (Acts 3:22-23), and in his apologetic before the Sanhedrin, Stephen the martyr declared that Yeshua was the promised Messiah: "This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, 'The lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear.' " (Acts 7:37-38).
This is only a brief historical perspective of what I mean by evolutionary in that there was an original plan that god decided to bring to pass by using certain individuals in history like the Patriarchs and finally the gathering together of a chosen people that would allow the lineage of the messiah to come about through the nation of Israel. This prophet who finally came was prophesied to come first by Moses and then by the prophets and his lineage could be traced back into history by the Jews by referring to their sacred writings. However, the Jews rejected Jesus because he did not fit the profile of the coming messiah. They were looking for a messiah who they believed to be a worldly deliverer. One who would lead the armies of Israel against the Roman Empire and set up an imperial Davidic kingdom on earth. This is why there is a division between what Jews and Christians believe. We believe in a suffering Messiah who bridges the gap between God and man by his death and resurrection. This is a stumbling point for the Jews who expected a different type of Messiah and they therefore rejected him and condemned him to death by crucifixion fulfilling gods ultimate plan. The Romans who were highly skilled at crucifixion went to each of the three crosses and broke the legs of the condemned men but when they came to Jesus he was already dead and to be sure plunged a spear into his side to confirm this. Now if you remember in the gospels Thomas the Doubter was given the opportunity to put his hand in the risen Christ’s side to confirm for himself that this was indeed the risen Jesus. You see God had a different idea in mind all along that people did not comprehend. Jesus said to Pontus Pilot “ My kingdom is not of this world for if it was my servants would fight for me”. Jesus was in touch with God’s ultimate goal. He understood why he was born. He said for this purpose I was born that if I be lifted up from the earth (referring to the Cross) I will draw all men unto me. His idea was based on saving people not in worldly power by overthrowing the powers that be but he would save the world through sacrificing himself. And this could only be brought about through his death and resurrection . Like Abraham God was willing to sacrifice his only Son for us. That he would be a deliverer in a spiritual sense by saving us from our sins. Jesus is the fulfillment of gods plan of salvation for the world. Through the sacrificial offering of his own body on the tree and the shedding of his own blood by the crucifixion. Three days later he would rise from the dead making it possible to lead all who call upon him by faith to be made righteous and thereby allowed to enter that promised land called paradise. In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. For there is no other name given among men whereby they must be saved and that name is Jesus.
Nono, You do not have to agree with what I wrote you only have to understand that this is what I believe. Maybe this will clear things up for you on why there is such a disagreement between various monotheistic faiths like ours. Mike
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replied to:  NKingston
Silent
[POST DELETED]

.................GOOD JOB NK!................

I was about to refer him to a lecture of Ahmed Deedat on the issue you've just debated.

Jazakallah!
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replied to:  Silent
Silent
Replied to:  .................GOOD JOB NK!................ I was about to refer him...
QU'RAN AL-FURQAAN (THE DISTIGUISHER OR TRUTH AND FALSEHOOD)
************************************************************
THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT EACH AND EVERY VERSE OF QURAN IS A SIGN FOR THOSE WHO PONDER WITH HUMBLE HEARTS....MASHALLAH!
************************************************************
THE 'FINAL TESTMENT' OF THE RELIGION OF JUSTICE AND TRUE FREEDOM
************************************************************

[22:17]

Inna allatheena amanoo waallatheenahadoo waalssabi-eena waalnnasarawaalmajoosa waallatheena ashrakoo inna Allahayafsilu baynahum yawma alqiyamati inna AllahaAAala kulli shay-in shaheedun ان الذين امنوا والذين هادوا والصابئين والنصاري والمجوس والذين اشركوا ان الله يفصل بينهم يوم القيامة ان الله علي كل شئ شهيد
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَالَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالصَّابِئِينَ وَالنَّصَارَى وَالْمَجُوسَ وَالَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَفْصِلُ بَيْنَهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ

URDU:
بیشک جو لوگ ایمان لائے اور جو لوگ یہودی
ہوئے اور ستارہ پرست اور نصارٰی (عیسائی) اور آتش پرست اور جو مشرک ہوئے، یقیناً اﷲ قیامت کے دن ان (سب) کے درمیان فیصلہ فرما دے گا۔ بیشک اﷲ ہر چیز کا مشاہدہ فرما رہا ہے

ENGLISH:

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for Allah is witness of all things.

ANALYSIS:

|ان - that| الذين - those| امنوا - believed (p) | والذين - and those| هادوا - repented/guided/Jews (p) | والصابئون - null| والنصاري - null| من - of| امن - believed | بالله - with God/by God | واليوم - null| الاخر - ~¥¦{A - ZUÀA ~¥¦{A the day the last/Resurrection Day | وعمل - null| صالحا - Saleh/messenger of Thamud | فلا - so do not/so no/so -- not/so let not/so -- does not/so let -- not/ emphasis (e) that does not change meaning of a sentence if removed | خوف - fear/fight | عليهم - on them| ولا - But not| هم - they/them/they are/those are | يحزنون - they be sad/they be grieving

********************************************
COMPARE THE ABOVE AYAT TO THE FOLLOWING:
********************************************

[5:69]

Inna allatheena amanoo waallatheenahadoo waalssabi-oona waalnnasaraman amana biAllahi waalyawmi al-akhiriwaAAamila salihan fala khawfun AAalayhim walahum yahzanoona
ان الذين امنوا والذين هادوا والصابئون والنصاري من امن بالله واليوم الاخر وعمل صالحا فلا خوف عليهم ولا هم يحزنون
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَالَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالصَّابِؤُونَ وَالنَّصَارَى مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحًا فَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

URDU:

بیشک (خود کو) مسلمان (کہنے والے) اور یہودی اور صابی (یعنی ستارہ پرست) اور نصرانی جو بھی (سچے دل سے تعلیماتِ محمدی کے مطابق) اللہ پر اور یومِ آخرت پر ایمان لائے اور نیک عمل کرتے رہے تو ان پر نہ کوئی خوف ہوگا اور نہ وہ غمگین ہوں گے

ENGLISH:

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

ANALYSIS:

|ان - that| الذين - those| امنوا - believed (p) | والذين - and those| هادوا - repented/guided/Jews (p) | والصابئون - null| والنصاري - null| من - of| امن - believed | بالله - with God/by God | واليوم - null| الاخر - ~¥¦{A - ZUÀA ~¥¦{A the day the last/Resurrection Day | وعمل - null| صالحا - Saleh/messenger of Thamud | فلا - so do not/so no/so -- not/so let not/so -- does not/so let -- not/ emphasis (e) that does not change meaning of a sentence if removed | خوف - fear/fight | عليهم - on them| ولا - But not| هم - they/them/they are/those are | يحزنون - they be sad/they be grieving. |
*********************************************************************
READ AGAIN....PLZ!

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for Allah is witness of all things.

'Compare...

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

*********************************************************************
POINT: 'MONOTHEISM' IS BETTER THAN 'POLYTHEISM' IN ANY 'FORM'

WA MA ALAINA ILLUL BALAGH!

(Our responsibility is to 'convey' the message. only!)

PEACE!
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replied to:  Silent
Silent
Replied to:  QU'RAN AL-FURQAAN (THE DISTIGUISHER OR TRUTH AND FALSEHOOD) ************************************************************ THERE IS...
ONE AND ONLY RELIGION = THE RELIGION OF ABRAHAM'GOD =ISLAM
**********************************************************
IMPREGNATED IN NATURE OF HUMAN ="ADAMI" IN 'URDU'
**********************************************************

[2:120] Neither the Jews, nor the Christians, will accept you, unless you follow their religion. Say, "GOD's guidance is the true guidance." If you acquiesce to their wishes, despite the knowledge you have received, you will find no ally or supporter to help you against GOD.

[3:83] Are they seeking other than GOD's religion, when everything in the heavens and the earth has submitted to Him, willingly and unwillingly, and to Him they will be returned?

[3:85] Anyone who accepts other than Submission(Islam) as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter, he will be with the losers.

[3:95] Say, "GOD has proclaimed the truth: You shall follow Abraham's religion - monotheism. He never was an idolater."

[4:125] Who is better guided in his religion than one who submits totally to GOD, leads a righteous life, according to the creed of Abraham: monotheism? GOD has chosen Abraham as a beloved friend.

[30:30] Therefore, you shall devote yourself to the religion of strict monotheism. Such is the natural instinct placed into the people by GOD. Such creation of GOD will never change. This is the perfect religion, but most people do not know.

[30:43] Therefore, you shall devote yourself completely to this perfect religion, before a day comes which is made inevitable by GOD. On that day, they will be shocked.

[39:14] Say, "GOD is the only One I worship, devoting my religion absolutely to Him alone.

[48:28] He is the One who sent His messenger(Muhammmad) with the guidance and the religion of truth, to make it prevail over all other religions. GOD suffices as a witness.

[61:9] He has sent His messenger(Muhammad) with the guidance and the true religion, and will make it dominate all religions, in spite of the idol worshipers.

****************************************************************

.................T H E.......E N D............
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replied to:  Silent
Silent
Replied to:  ONE AND ONLY RELIGION = THE RELIGION OF ABRAHAM'GOD =ISLAM **********************************************************...
[5:57] O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture who mock and ridicule your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence GOD, if you are really believers.

[5:77] Say, "O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion beyond the truth, and do not follow the opinions of people who have gone astray, and have misled multitudes of people; they are far astray from the right path."

[8:49] The hypocrites and those who harbored doubt in their hearts said, "These people are deceived by their religion." However, if one puts his trust in GOD, then GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

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replied to:  Silent
lehmann520
Replied to:  [5:57] O you who believe, do not befriend those among the...
Hello Everyone,

How excellent a group this is! How excellent a discussion!

let me say this:

the bible was not written by a follower of jesus christ, it was compiled by the RCC (roman catholic church) which included paganism, pantheon-ism, barbarism, idolatry etc and a host of other god less things in an effort to include the pagan romans into their new religion.

I'm sorry Mike, forgive me when I say that the excellent words of Jesus have been corrupted by a great lie and Liar.

the best trick the devil ever played is forming a church around idol worship and getting people to believe this represented God.

even protestant christians worship the concept of God made flesh and they call that Divine. Flesh is NOT Divine. The only part of Jesus that was perfect and Divine was his soul which is made in the image of God. We ALL have perfect souls, it is our flesh and minds that are imperfect.

christians worship the death of a man made divine by myth. It was not Jesus's body that rose from the grave, it was his SOUL. God cares nothing for our flesh. He loves our SOULS.

catholics go even farther into blasphemy and worship the act of birth, the most common thing on earth. Every living creature produces young in some fashion. the real blessing of reproduction is the ability of man to raise his children to be BETTER than he is. Only We have the power to infuse our children with more love than was given us. It is not the act of birth that is holy, it the act of raising our children, yet neither the bible nor any christian church even knows what happened to Jesus as a child.
I find the omission striking. I see the omission as a sign from God that something is wrong here.

Jesus was undoubtedly a speaker of truth and understood God. Muhammad was a great prophet. Moses was a leader and a freedom fighter. Abraham was a man who loved God so much, he offered his precious child to Him...and God told him, No but thank you for the devotion now, go spread the word of how I love you and all the others.

the plain truth of the matter is that NONE of these things are God. They are the stories and deeds of men relating to God, living under God, loving God.

we do not possess the language to speak about God. We possess the language to speak only about man and this material world.

God IS
when asked who HE was HE said

I AM

Dawn
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replied to:  mvastano6164
mvastano6164
Replied to:  I guess you missed that part of the bible that says...


Let everyone who wants to know the truth that Christ is the risen savior!!!

He conquered the grave!!! Jesus conquered the grave!!!

He is mighty to save!!! He is mighty to save!!!

Jesus, He can move a mountain!!! He can move a mountain!!! He rose and conquered the Grave!!! He rose and conquered the grave!!!

There is no other name given among men whereby they must be save!!! That name is Christ Jesus!!!

Give God the glory and believe in his Son!!!
Jesus lord of glory!!!
Great is the mystery of Godliness !!! God was manifested in the flesh!!! New International Version (©1984) I Timothy 3:16
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

Halalauiah to the King!!!

Praise His Holy Name!!!




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replied to:  mvastano6164
NKingston
Replied to:  Let everyone who wants to know the truth that...
RE: the post that started as follows:
Let everyone who wants to know the truth that Christ is the risen savior!!!

He conquered the grave!!!
-----
Here we go again, Mike. That is cult to a "T." If we disagree with you, are you going to claim that we Muslims are persecuting you for Jesus' sake?

Nono
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replied to:  NKingston
Silent
Replied to:  RE: the post that started as follows: Let everyone who wants...
To NK

I think it's 'enough' brother!

To MV

Hope you'll be able to make use of your common sense. Do not speak furthur, if you haven't yet figured out the answers of the questions raised against the book you believe.( I've added a few more..up there...)
Each and every question, in it-self, is a part of answer, if you can'sense' it...and we obviously know it before hand.

Thanks for the participation....brother!


To Dawn

Thanks for appreciation.This Topic was about ONE RELIGION OF ONE GOD OF ABRAHIM AND ADAM,ALIKE....

If you are a person who knows/loves/ and teaches/preaches about A GOD WITHOUT A RELIGION, then we'll discuss it under "LOVE OF GOD"...

Thanks again ...sister!

Wassalaam,


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replied to:  NKingston
mvastano6164
Replied to:  RE: the post that started as follows: Let everyone who wants...
Nono, I am not the one with the persecution complex. Try not to forget that you are living in a free society founded on the principals of free speech. Whose founding fathers have their faith immersed in the Christian tradition. I can post anything I want and in any venue I want. It is therefore necessary for others to know the truth of what God is telling the world through the Gospel of Christ AND NOT BE LED ASTRAY!!!
LET EVERYONE KNOW that this same Jesus whom was crucified also was raised from the dead and will lead any and all who put their faith in Him to salvation. During this Easter season I want to say that king in the Highest has been vindicated in His word and this can easily be seen just by reading the gospel accounts of this miraculous event. God revealed his prophet Jesus for salvation and there is no longer any worry about our sinful condition for He took upon Himself the sins of the world. He is the propitiation for our sins. Come to Christ and forsake the traditions of men.
JEUSUS SAID " I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE, NO MAN CAN COME TO THE FATHER UNLESS HE COMES THROUGH ME....ALL OTHERS WHO CAME BEFORE ME OR COME AFTER ME ARE BUT THIEIVES AND LIARS.

PRIASE GOD FOR HIS HOLY SERVANT JESUS WHO DIED FOR OUR SINS AND HAS MADE A WAY INTO HIS KINGDOM!!
First Council of Nicea (325) First Council of Constantinople (381)
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible. We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth]; by whom all things were made;
Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Ghost. And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.
In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
[But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]
HIS FAITHFUL SERVANT, Mike
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replied to:  mvastano6164
Silent
Replied to:  Nono, I am not the one with the persecution complex....
On account of every thing MV wrote seems 'his' incarnated god was a 'false -prophet of no god'. (Period/Full-stop)
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lehmann520
Replied to:  To NK I think it's 'enough' brother! To MV...
I have nothing against the faithful. I think Mike's faith and world view is as valid as mine or yours or anyone Else's. I do not agree that religion benefits anyone.

If you are telling me I am somehow less worthy in God's view because I reject religion, you are a fool and do not understand God.

I fully embrace scripture that tells mankind about how to live as moral people but I reject any word that tries to tell me what God thinks about anything or tries to describe something He is supposed to find especially good or bad. We cannot know the mind of God. Judgment of sin os for God alone. The task of man is to love. PERIOD. I require no church to tell me this nor the educated opinion of man to tell me how. Understanding God requires only that I open my heart to Him and contemplate the suffusion of exquisite beauty, grace and peace He pours into my soul.

If you are equating my love of God without religion with the advent of a "new religion' in revelation, you are on the wrong track.

the 'new religion' of revelation is environmentalism. The stated goals of this religion is the reduction of population and return of modern lifestyles to something more like the one of the 19th century. Environmentalism is currently trying to force solar panel technology on the poorest people in the world in the name of saving the natural world. Killing people and keeping them poor, starving and at the mercy of evil men with machetes and rifles in the name of the Goddess Earth. Nature worship

this is against God. He gave us mastery over the natural world. He did not tell us to raise it above our needs as human beings which is what the new religion is doing.
this is something I fight

how could I, if I were evil...I would see other evil as good if I were thinking incorrectly

do you think the environmental movement is good?

Dawn

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replied to:  lehmann520
Silent
Replied to:  I have nothing against the faithful. I think Mike's faith and...
Dear Dawn !

I think you're in a state of self-evaluation we all go through in our lives, once or twice...I don't feel it would be justified to discuss it any furthur.

I just want to clarify one thing here...for final..

There's something different with 'debate-able issue' that makes us act FIRM.Otherwise I have no personal grudges against anyone.That's what I'm striving for too..Humans...US!

I called Mike My Brother and you My Sister.

I have assured you of my love and great respect of Jesus alaihissalaam.

Hope it will rectify the 'hatches'..

Wassalaam
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replied to:  Silent
Silent
Replied to:  Dear Dawn ! I think you're in a state of...
Generally..

I wanted to add a few words..

I know that my approach to the matter is 'as usual 'oblique' It's 'bitter' usually..but I want to assure you it's not 'negative'...
I personally do not challenge 'any' Holy Person or Holy Book..because my belief is that 'Once the 'Truth' is 'born', it never 'dies'...and keep 'Ressurecting' itself"....
..however it's often mis-understood...

This is What the Real Religion of Our God is...!

I schooled and taught in a Convent school.One of the very first of sources ( Beside Quran /Hadith) of learning 'Wisdom' for me was PARABLES OF JESUS alihissalaam..in the New Testment..the other book I would give credit to..was 'Hakayaat e Shekh Saadi'rahmatullah alaih...Parables..again..

I always felt and kept the pain of torture of our beloved Jesus a.s. I litrarily wept for him...whenever I saw the Cross..

I wrote this poem a few years ago...hope it will not be 'judged'..

THE INNOCENT

I was a miracle happened, for those who were hungry for the miracles.
I was a message of submission and salvation , for the arrogant people!

I cast the pearls before them, but they squandered them like swine.
I healed their bodies and souls while they were planning to hurt mine!

I was, an innocent, 'saved' from the disbelievers by my sovereign Lord.
I am that innocent, still 'hanged' on believer's cross as their helpless God!

SW

Dedicated to The CHRIST, The Messiah (Hazrat Isah pbuh)

(It's still on an old website..)

I want you to 'see' it from the perspective of a Muslim's Heart!

Wassalaam
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replied to:  Silent
lehmann520
Replied to:  Dear Dawn ! I think you're in a state of...
I realize you have just ended our conversation and dismissed me as ignorant or juvenile or both.

I see that you think I'm debating something.

In your other post you talk of your bitterness and describe the Agony and the Passion of Christ.
your poem seems to talk about how we destroyed the gift of Christ's life and death with our ignorance and willfulness.

I understand now.

here is what I think, for what it's worth as I talk to your back.

I am both ignorant and juvenile, this causes me to seek wisdom and maturity.

I am not debating I am conversing.

remember, Christ's agony was by men and his passion was FOR men. His message was love..perfect love. He died in physical agony so we could live in spiritual peace. This is why he is revered as a son of God.

happy easter my friend
go in peace
Dawn



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replied to:  lehmann520
Silent
Replied to:  I realize you have just ended our conversation and dismissed me...
A Muslim knows/believes/loves JESUS through QURAN

...........bitter yet...TRUE!

He was a SIGN of GOD.

But

He 'WAS' ....'A' SIGN OF GOD.

PERIOD.
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replied to:  Silent
mvastano6164
Replied to:  A Muslim knows/believes/loves JESUS through QURAN ...........bitter yet...TRUE! He...
God is omniscient and therefore observes all truths. He sits at the apex of a pyramid of all known and unknown truths and perceives them all at once. He understands real and false truths and is therefore not caught off guard and cannot be surprised or mistaken . What is the truth that God wants us to know about. The gospels of the new testament claims that Jesus is the fulfillment of the writings of the old testament in the person and work of Jesus the Christ. If you want to know what real truth is then you need to believe in His messenger. Jesus is that messenger. If I were you I would not perjure myself about the truth.. We both cannot be right about the particulars when it comes to salvation. God is not the author of confusion. You need to look at the new testament record.
Romans 10:8-10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith which we preach):

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

John 10:9

9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

What do you expect me to do with these statements? Do you think by calling into question the documents themselves you can change the truth of these documents???
Mike
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replied to:  mvastano6164
lehmann520
Replied to:  God is omniscient and therefore observes all truths....
Happy Easter Mike

I hope you and yours are all well
you are always in my prayers

In Silent I see a man who denies truth because of niggling details, I see desperate dancing on the head of a pin.

those who understand understand
it is telling that those who understand God are not arguing but agreeing and we, each of us, no matter what we call our faith or our holy books, can see God's wisdom in what the others say.

God is great and He unites us under the one true language of His love.
Isn't it a miracle?

Dawn
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replied to:  Silent
Silent
[POST DELETED]

BTW..Why will people on earth OPPOSE HIM AGAIN...if he will DESCEND DOWN FROM THE SKY .right before their eyes...???

(A new question based upon the NEW TESTAMENT)
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Silent
Replied to:  BTW..Why will people on earth OPPOSE HIM AGAIN...if he will...
HAPPY EASTER TO ALL CHRISTAIN BROTHERS AND SISTERS ON BEHALF OF MUSLIMS AT THIS FORUM:

AS OUR GOD SAVED HIS BELOVED MESSENGER JESUS A.S. FROM THE DEATH OF DISHONOUR AND MADE HIM AND HIS MOTHER A SIGN FOR DISBELIEVERS!
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replied to:  Silent
mvastano6164
[POST DELETED]
Silent, My soul belief in the revelation of God is in the Person and work of Jesus Christ. That message was first spread through the world by word of mouth but also has its testimony in first hand witness accounts in the New Testament documents themselves. I agree with scholars that they stand as a witness and as a help in living out our daily lives as we meditate on them. I also believe that the debate over the new testament manuscripts as being forgeries is without warrant and smells of a hidden agenda. This agenda is to discredit the source materials (manuscripts used for the bibles we have today). If the source materials can be called into question as being less than authentic then the whole reliability of these documents will collapse and be shown to be suspect. What then will appear is the formation of an artificial structure composed from documents that carry a different and false message. When we read these documents we have a mythical Christ figure whose authenticity has been called into question. It has been suggested that Muhammad gave credence to Jesus based on older documents that he had at his disposal but now those documents are no longer around. However, these bibles we have today are not based on forgeries. Christ’s authentic message or gospel is not lost in antiquity. I have heard all the arguments on both sides of this issue.
But to be perfectly clear about this matter it is a fact that Muhammad had nothing more to go on than what we have. Most of the “so called” original sources that were around by the time Muhammad looked at them are the very same manuscripts we have today. So when he looked at the new testament documents that he had he was looking at the very manuscripts we have. When he stated that these were in fact inspired writings and should be believed he was talking about what we have. When he read the gospels he read what we read. The very same manuscripts he had we have.
When I quote these texts I am quoting the very same texts he quoted from. So when I try to explain to anyone that Christ died and was buried and rose again I quote these inspired writings as testimony to the truth of what God was doing in Christ. This means that you must give credence to the documents we call the new testament or you will be calling into question everything Muhammad said about them. And he said the following in the Koran.
TESTIMONY TO THE HOLY SCRIPTURES 239
Scriptures to which he appealed before the people of Arabia as his witness, to see whether or no they bear testimony to his mission. And it is the sacred duty of every Mussulman, in order that he may guard against the possibility of fatal deception, to do the same.

Lastly; all honest Moslems are called on to believe, for they cannot consistently disbelieve, that these Scriptures are the inspired "Word of God" (كلام الله) "that they are a light to lighten Mankind," (نوراً وهدى للناس) "an illumination and admonition to the Pious" (ضياً وذكراً للمتقين); in fine, that they are calculated to lead those that follow their precepts into the way of peace, and make them wise unto salvation. Why, then, will they neglect so precious a source of spiritual benefit as (the Corân itself being judge) exists in the Old and New Testaments, and shut themselves out from their illumination? Let them search the Scriptures diligently, and they will find the whole tenor of those sacred Books to be "that God is in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself";— that Jesus is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life"; "This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent."
Mike
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replied to:  mvastano6164
Silent
Replied to:  Silent, My soul belief in the revelation of God is...
You have just met one who has gone thru your scriptures...asking questions from it...

Muhammad was indifferent to those Scriptures on account of his illiteracy until God spoke to him directly. All Muslims find Quran very rational and reasonable , complete and perfect message of God whoch justifies and honour all prophets and remove the doubts about them.....We don't need more than that now...Thanks!

Keep preaching what you believe ...who's stopping you...Good Luck!

I beg your pardon now!

Lakum deenu kum waliyyadeen

Wassalaamun aliakum wa Ramatullahe wa Barakatohu.

and

JazaakAllah!
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NKingston
Replied to:  God is omniscient and therefore observes all truths....
RE: Post that began as follows.
God is omniscient and therefore observes all truths. He sits...
-----
Mike said: God is omniscient and therefore observes all truths. He sits at the apex of a pyramid of all known and unknown truths and perceives them all at once. He understands real and false truths and is therefore not caught off guard and cannot be surprised or mistaken .

Response: First of all, let's understand that there is no such thing as real and false truth. Truth is the same yesterday, today, and always. All else is error. Truth is. Falsehood is error, whether you want to call it false truth or not, but false is false and truth is truth, and truth can never be false. Because all things are decreed by Allah, I can still agree that Allah is never caught off guard in anything.

Mike said: What is the truth that God wants us to know about[?] The gospels of the new testament claims that Jesus is the fulfillment of the writings of the old testament in the person and work of Jesus the Christ.

Response: I used to believe that until I investigated the prophecies attributed to Jesus further. It turns out that hardly any of the Old Testament prophecies I used to believe were applicable to Jesus were correctly applied, but they mostly proved to be applicable only to Muhammad. Your New Testament gospels even prove that the authors believed that Jesus sent Muhammad.

Mike said: If you want to know what real truth is then you need to believe in His messenger. Jesus is that messenger.

Response: Correct, and that is what I cannot understand about Christians. They say they believe in Jesus, yet they follow Paul and a bunch of forged and anonymous documents. If you believed in the Messenger Jesus, you would either become Jewish or do as part of those of the Jesus, Movement did in the 7th century - namely embrace Islam. Are you Jewish or Muslim, Mike? Do you submit to the God of Jesus or not? If you submit to the God of Jesus, why are you proclaiming Christology instead of submission to Allah as Jesus taught. Jesus was a strict Torah observing Jew. Have you been circumcised?

Mike said: We both cannot be right about the particulars when it comes to salvation. God is not the author of confusion.

Response: CORRECT! So why are you a Christologist? You cannot believe in Jesus and then go contrary to what Jesus taught, namely violate the commandments. Either you servea Allah or you don't. Islam is a command of Allah. Muslim is one who obeys the command of Allah. The religion of Allah is what mankind is called to embrace, SO when are you going to embrace the command to Islam?

Mike said: You need to look at the new testament record.

Response: Why? The New Testament record is anonymous, unreliable, and predominantly made up of forgeries. That's fact, not assumption, so why look at something like that to know the truth? Maybe a little education might help you know the difference between truth and falsehood.

Mike asked: What do you expect me to do with these statements?

Response: What would you like to do with them? They are worthless.

Mike said: Do you think by calling into question the documents themselves you can change the truth of these documents???

Response: Truth is truth, regardless of whence it comes, but as far as the documents you mention, I think you need to scrap them like the Obstructionist Republicans wanted to do with the Health Care Reform Law.

Cheer!

Nono
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replied to:  mvastano6164
NKingston
Replied to:  Silent, My soul belief in the revelation of God is...
RE: Post to Silent from Mike that began as follows.
Silent, My soul belief in the revelation of God is in the Person and work of Jesus Christ.
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Mike said: My soul belief in the revelation of God is in the Person and work of Jesus Christ.
Response: Liar! If you truly believed that you would not be a Christian! Jesus was not a Christian. He was an Orthodox Jew!!!!!

Mike said: That message was first spread through the world by word of mouth but also has its testimony in first hand witness accounts in the New Testament documents themselves.
Response: True about the message being spread verbally throughout the then known world, but the accounts of the New Testament are mostly forgeries. Does Jesus approve of forgeries? As things go, the Book of Acts conflicts directly with the authentic writings of Paul. Who is lying? Paul or the anonymous author of the Book of Acts?

Mike said: I agree with scholars that they stand as a witness and as a help in living out our daily lives as we meditate on them. I also believe that the debate over the new testament manuscripts as being forgeries is without warrant and smells of a hidden agenda.
Response: No, there is no hidden agenda. If it was not so transparent that the New Testament was predominantly forgeries why aren't scholars authenticating them? Why are CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS, of all people, testifying of their own findings that the New Testament is predominantly forgeries? There are many books in your local library and many tremendous resouces online to support your investigation into this matter. The hidden agenda is to expose the anti-Christ, people like you who proclaim Jesus to be God incarnate and openly denying what their Jesus taught. Come on, you don't need scholars to see that the New Testament is bogus.

Mike said: This agenda is to discredit the source materials (manuscripts used for the bibles we have today).
Response: You know very well that this claim is not true. The only REAL agenda is to expose the fact that these manuscripts are what they actually are - namely, forgeries. Don't be so ignorant! Paul even tells you that!

Mike said: If the source materials can be called into question as being less than authentic then the whole reliability of these documents will collapse and be shown to be suspect.
Response: "If..." Nah, Mike, there is no "If..." here, and you of all people know that. Get your head out of your rectum and start baking some cookies, buddy. The truth is sweeter than you want to make it out to be. The documents already are suspect, and who doesn't know that as fact? Wake up and smell the coffee! It goes better with baked cookies than suck up air from your rectum. Your claims are pretty weak and extremely ignorant.

Mike said: What then will appear is the formation of an artificial structure composed from documents that carry a different and false message. When we read these documents we have a mythical Christ figure whose authenticity has been called into question.
Response: Correct. When you begin to familiarize yourself with the Hellenization of the Greco-Roman influences around the time of Christ, maybe you'll see a little light at the end of your tunnel. The Christian Jesus IS a mythical figure. You will be called into account on that subject which your Scriptures will agree:
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TO BE DOERS OF THE WORD
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Matt 7:21-27 (KJV)
-----
This comes from your own Bible, does it not? If you believe in this Jesus, why do you do contrary by ascribing deification to Him as the Greeks did to Mithras 500 years earlier? You better build your house on a rock, Mike, or you'll find yourself like the man who built his house on the sand.

Mike said: It has been suggested that Muhammad gave credence to Jesus based on older documents that he had at his disposal but now those documents are no longer around. However, these bibles we have today are not based on forgeries. Christ’s authentic message or gospel is not lost in antiquity. I have heard all the arguments on both sides of this issue.
Response: Anything that is in conflict with the Message of Jesus and the Prophets of old are not based on what they said. As far as your claim regarding what documents Muhammad had in his possession, it would not make any differnce because Muhammad was illiterate. He would not have known what to do with them since he could not understand what was written in them, so that suggestion as an argument one way or another is extremely weak.

Mike said: ...it is a fact that Muhammad had nothing more to go on than what we have.
Response: That's not true. He had Allah, and Allah's word agrees with the words of Jesus and the Prophets of Old. The New Testament deifies Jesus, turns him into God incarnate, and violates the commandment provided in the Torah. Once again, you provide a weak argument with a wild, random claim.

Mike said: Most of the “so called” original sources that were around by the time Muhammad looked at them are the very same manuscripts we have today. So when he looked at the new testament documents that he had he was looking at the very manuscripts we have.
Response: Liar! In a previous post, you went through the history of the current canon of Christian Scriptures, and you know that what you're saying above is an outright lie! Look, fact is fact, and a lie is a lie. Either you believe in what you said previously or you don't! You know that there were many gospels, letters from Paul and the apostles, apocryphas, and acts floating about most of which we all know were forgeries until the printing press came about in the 1600s. There STILL ARE many of these other gospels, letters from Paul and the apostles, apocryphas, and acts that are not in the current Christian canon of Scripture. Once again, let me reiterate that even if you were not in conflict with the very history you gave before, it would not have made any difference since Muhammad could not read any way.

Mike said: When he stated that these were in fact inspired writings and should be believed he was talking about what we have. When he read the gospels he read what we read. The very same manuscripts he had we have.
Response: Once again, that is not true. The "injil" spoken of in the Qur'an and by Muhammad were the "good news" of all the Messengers of Allah, not anything that was written anonymously and specifically called Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Hello? Get your history and facts straight.

Mike said: When I quote these texts I am quoting the very same texts he quoted from.
Response: Really? When did Muhammad quote from which texts and where? I look forward to hearing from you on this one.

Mike said: So when I try to explain to anyone that Christ died and was buried and rose again I quote these inspired writings as testimony to the truth of what God was doing in Christ. This means that you must give credence to the documents we call the new testament or you will be calling into question everything Muhammad said about them.
Response: QUITE THE CONTRARY! The New Testament is in direct conflict with itself and The Old Testament, so to give credence to such documents are appropriately classified as blasphemy to anyone who believes that Jesus was indeed a Prophet of God. To believe that Jesus died to atone for our sins and resurrected three days later is totally Greco-Roman myth applied to the historical man Jesus.

Mike said: And he said the following in the Koran.
Response: Where in the Qur'an are you quoting from?

Mike, you are so full of it. You present such a weak case that it's really sickening! I don't think you know the Qur'an, Islam, your own Scriptures, nor anything else you claim to know. lol. Please, if you want to contribute anything of value to a forum, at least base your contention on FACTS! You lie so often and make such twisted and fallacious claims and arguments that you know for sure who Jesus is talking about in your Bible, both in the passage above and in Matthew 23 that I presented in a prior post to you. As I keep telling you, you need to get your head out of your rectum. What you're trying to feed us really stinks.

Nono
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replied to:  NKingston
mvastano6164
Replied to:  RE: Post to Silent from Mike that began as follows. Silent,...
Nono, Lets talk about the Greco Roman idea of God which you know nothing about. Have you heard of Plato ideas on God and how they cannot be linked to Christian theology at all. Let me bring you up to speed on his theology and how it is impossible for a Roman or a Greek to belive that god could be raised from the dead. But not even that can be considered when you understand that God cannot change in any way shape or form!!
Early on in Christendom, just after the NT was written there appeared on the scene a particular heresy called Gnosticism . This appeared in various forms but all relating the same theme. That theme had its roots in the writings of Plato and Aristotle. These theists formulate ideas that exposed the very nature of God. Other philosophers like Cicero formulated concepts that dealt with ‘Fate” and these ideas are still around today. In an attempt to understand God and themes like fate Plato and others of his time used a type of logic called “modal logic”. So they formulate premises that produced necessary conclusions. For example: If God exists he must be omnipotent (all powerful). Or if God exists he must be omniscience ( all knowing). You probably already know these concepts. Let me go on and cut to the chase on the issue of importance to this discussion. The question dealing with ontology of being. Plato believed that if God is perfect in his being then he necessarily must be Timeless. The assumptions that follow this premise are conclusions that are necessary. It therefore follows that if God is timeless he must have the following attributes. 1> He must be immutable (changeless in any way ,shape or form) 2> He must be impassable ( unaffected by anything or anyone outside of his being). These are the only two I want to deal with now. It would have to be understood that they conceived of god as being in a “perfect blissful state “. Stay with me. If God is perfect in the state he is in then any change, in any way would only be change for the worse. For example: If god is in a perfect state of bliss he would not be able stop in this timeless state of being and relate to anything outside himself not without jeopardizing his utopia. This would mean if one wanted to ask god for help on a particular issue say repenting of sin or asking for guidance in a matter it would require that god would have to stop being static/timeless and enter into her realm of temporality. He would have to stop as it were being timeless and become temporal. He would have to change! So a modern theologian might query the following question: If god is in a timeless state of being then how would he be able to know what time it is? This is a serious question for it relates to the same principal that Plato was alluding to. When the Bible states that god became a human being that the eternal timeless god changed from one state (timelessness) to another state (temporality) he broke the cardinal rule of Platonic theism! A serious heresy followed. It was postulated by Gnostics , if god is in fact a timeless being he cannot change so therefore the incarnation must be false. Furthermore, the son of God must only be human and not divine. This heresy continues in many forms into our own day but all are related to the idea of Antichrist. So you fit in this mold just like your Platonic friends of old. You are the Antichrist!! In fact, in John’s epistles he states that whoever denies that Jesus has come in the flesh is an antichrist. So if you are willing I would be happy to discuss these issues further. I can in fact recommend some very good material. I would at least be able to steer you in the right direction in your attempt to come to grips with this and many other important issues that you seem to be unaware of. His Name is Wonderful! Mike

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replied to:  mvastano6164
NKingston
Replied to:  Nono, Lets talk about the Greco Roman idea of God...
As-salaamu alay-kum, Mike!

Mike said: Nono, Lets talk about the Greco Roman idea of God which you know nothing about.
Response: I love your passion, but I sure am entertained by your ignorance about what I know and don't know. lol, so let's hear it.

Mike said: Have you heard of Plato ideas on God and how they cannot be linked to Christian theology at all. Let me bring you up to speed on his theology and how it is impossible for a Roman or a Greek to belive that god could be raised from the dead. But not even that can be considered when you understand that God cannot change in any way shape or form!!
Response: I am indeed familiar with Plato's theology, but let's see where you are taking me because you already misspoke, especially as it relates to Mithras, Dionyseus, Isis, and several other stories about Greco-Roman theology, but I'll allow you to build your case... even though you're already starting on a very weak basis. Poor, stupid guy.


Mike said: Early on in Christendom, just after the NT was written there appeared on the scene a particular heresy called Gnosticism .
Response: WRONG! Like I said before, I sure am entertained by your ignorance about what I know and don't know. Gnosticism was around even before Jesus, AND when applied to post Jesus and the cross event there were a new form gnostics as we discover from the Dead Sea Scrolls and history of the cult hiding out by the Dead Sea until they committed mass suicide when the Romans came.

Mike said: This appeared in various forms but all relating the same theme.
Response: Correct.

Mike said: That theme had its roots in the writings of Plato and Aristotle.
Response: Not completely true. In some documents circulating post Jesus and the cross event, there is that assumption, but not necessarily or completely true. However, I am aware that that is suspected.

Mike said: These theists formulate ideas that exposed the very nature of God.
Response: WRONG! These theists formulated ideas the exposed their theory or conception of what the nature of God was. The nature of God has always been exposed through his signs such as nature, his Messengers throughout milleniums past, and even science.

Mike said: Other philosophers like Cicero formulated concepts that dealt with ‘Fate” and these ideas are still around today. In an attempt to understand God and themes like fate Plato and others of his time used a type of logic called “modal logic”. So they formulate premises that produced necessary conclusions. For example: If God exists he must be omnipotent (all powerful). Or if God exists he must be omniscience ( all knowing). You probably already know these concepts.
Response: I understand how modalities work. It's a poor premise so far for your case, but I'm still open minded enough to see where this is going.

Mike said: Let me go on and cut to the chase on the issue of importance to this discussion. The question dealing with ontology of being.
Response: I understand ontological thinking, the science of beings qua beings. I am also aware that Parmenides was among the first to propose an ontological characterization of the fundamental nature of reality.

Mike said: Plato believed that if God is perfect in his being then he necessarily must be Timeless. The assumptions that follow this premise are conclusions that are necessary. It therefore follows that if God is timeless he must have the following attributes. 1> He must be immutable (changeless in any way ,shape or form) 2> He must be impassable ( unaffected by anything or anyone outside of his being). These are the only two I want to deal with now. It would have to be understood that they conceived of god as being in a “perfect blissful state “. Stay with me.
Response: I'm still hanging in there.

Mike said: If God is perfect in the state he is in then any change, in any way would only be change for the worse. For example: If god is in a perfect state of bliss he would not be able stop in this timeless state of being and relate to anything outside himself not without jeopardizing his utopia. This would mean if one wanted to ask god for help on a particular issue say repenting of sin or asking for guidance in a matter it would require that god would have to stop being static/timeless and enter into her realm of temporality. He would have to stop as it were being timeless and become temporal. He would have to change! So a modern theologian might query the following question: If god is in a timeless state of being then how would he be able to know what time it is?
Response: TRUE!

Mike said: This is a serious question for it relates to the same principal that Plato was alluding to. When the Bible states that god became a human being that the eternal timeless god changed from one state (timelessness) to another state (temporality) he broke the cardinal rule of Platonic theism! A serious heresy followed.
Quesiton: When did the Bible state that God became a human being? I am aware of the Christian dogma that makes this "seem" so, but I am not aware of it being in the Bible.
Response: Yes, indeed, this reasoning does follow with heresy.

Mike said: It was postulated by Gnostics , if god is in fact a timeless being he cannot change so therefore the incarnation must be false.
Response: I can see where the Gnostics are coming from, and I'm sure you do also.

Mike said: Furthermore, the son of God must only be human and not divine. This heresy continues in many forms into our own day but all are related to the idea of Antichrist.
Response: Actually, the concept you present about the son of God being only human involves modal thinking stretched into ontological reasoning. Where the "Anti-Christ" concept creeps in is totally ontological, not modal, and not good reasoning to base you proposed assumption that follows.

Mike said: So you fit in this mold just like your Platonic friends of old. You are the Antichrist!! In fact, in John’s epistles he states that whoever denies that Jesus has come in the flesh is an antichrist.
Response: Actually, that's stretching it, even for one who believes in the New Testament. If you were to insert a reasonable modality then I could see how you put me in with a Platonic school of thought, but there is neither a modality nor applied ontological form of reasoning here... or did I miss something? Correct me if I am wrong.

Mike said: So if you are willing I would be happy to discuss these issues further. I can in fact recommend some very good material.
Response: Actually, yes, I would be very interested in this subject matter and other reading material along this line; however, I don't see your point with all this. Your presentation so far does not seem to go anywhere. If you would be so kind, please explain further. The material presented I understand. Your point is what I seem to have missed.

Mike said: I would at least be able to steer you in the right direction in your attempt to come to grips with this and many other important issues that you seem to be unaware of.
Response: Once again, your ignorance creeps in pretending to be this intelligent beast that you are not.

Mike concluded: His Name is Wonderful!
Response: Yes, it is, but the prophecy in Isaiah that you get this from is referring to Muhammad, not Jesus whom I honor as a Messenger and Prophet of Allah.

Concluding thought: Mike, that was a most interesting presentation, but I'm not sure what one thing has to do with the other. Maybe you are reading up on these subject matters and just need a way to utilize them to show off intelligence that is not there, or you will need to apply modal thinking and ontology in a way that applies to your perception of something I have said.

Cheers!

Nono
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replied to:  mvastano6164
lehmann520
Replied to:  Nono, Lets talk about the Greco Roman idea of God...
Mike

I'll say it again, thanks for the Plato, it taught me so much and was a really big factor in the whole Amazing Grace transformation.

I would like to say that I think Plato and others who thought of God as outside everything were dealing with an immature concept of the universe as PART of God. Modern science continues to be locked in this concept in very striking ways.
For instance, they regard black holes as engines of destruction and ignore the fact of their luminosity. They say singularities eat everything and that once something is eaten, it disappears but they are wrong.

this has led them away from the answer. the answer is found IN THE LIGHT not IN THE BLACKNESS. We have no pictures of the black at the center of a black hole, did you know that?

Amazing Grace.

I saw The Light and asked the question...why should it be so?
the answer is....the blackness they seek doesn't exist because even these massive engines that destroy are actually creation engines. Gravity draws the old matter (information in physics speak) into a deep well where the laws of physics break down. In this place the information is cleansed and rewritten then the black hole pumps it back into the universe where gravity regathers it into NEW information and structure. This is the luminosity we see.
The Light is the Answer. Praise God.

in the end, knowledge will increase
what do you think of what I know now that I understand?
ain't God cool?
Dawn
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replied to:  lehmann520
mvastano6164
Replied to:  Mike I'll say it again, thanks for the Plato, it...

LETS ELECT NONO FOR PRESIDENT HE SUCH A KNOW IT ALL

SPOKEN BY A TRUE AMERICAN ?


When it comes to whom President Obama represents, I believe that he is healing the racial and partisan barriers in the USA better than any prior President has, ever could, or ever tried. The problem is that America is still run by predominantly white, male dominated, Protestants, which is why their insecurities have created the Ku Klux Klan who are in other ways still active. Because of the insecurities of these Christian Americans, Christian cults are turning into militant groups in Michigan and Idaho along with other dots on the map of the USA and placing police and civilians at risk all the time. The problem is that the Christian leaning media won't cover these Christian Terrorist activities to avoid being persecuted for Jesus' sake, but it's okay to publish falsehoods about Muslims or take Islam out of context.
President Barack Obama has set the example that, against all odds that exist in the United States, being non-white is not a barrier to attaining the highest position in the United States. He has shown the world that you don't have to be a bully to pursue international world peace. His example has proven that being black means you are too inferior to reach out to those who are struggling and to pull them up out of the mire of politics and social oppression. President Obama has faced the challenges before him, admitted where admission was due, and took on responsibility where due diligence belonged to him. This Health Care Reform legislation was historic and a great credit to his administration.

What's interesting is how we differ so much, but we are both extremely libertarian. However, I believe in the rule of law and capitolism in the truest, but I support socialist and communistic policies as well where they work best for our country. Not every aspect of socialism and communism is bad, and the United States is not a true democracy. The United States is actually a Representative Republic, contrary to what most Americans realize.

REPSONE: THIS IS PROPAGANDA IN THE MOST EXTREME SENSE. THIS UNSUBSTANTIATED MUD SLINGING IS TOTAL NONSENSE. IT’S AS IF HE WERE FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY. MAYBE HE IS?? HE THINKS THAT WE AMERICANS ARE UNAWARE OF DEMOCRACY! HE IS ALSO A BIGOT! LISTEN TO THIS STATEMENT> “The problem is that America is still run by predominantly white, male dominated, Protestants, which is why their insecurities have created the Ku Klux Klan who are in other ways still active “.,.AND HE HAS A PERSECUTION COMPLEX >, “The problem is that the Christian leaning media won't cover these Christian Terrorist activities to avoid being persecuted for Jesus' sake, but it's okay to publish falsehoods about Muslims or take Islam out of context.”
DON’T TAKE ANYTHING NONO SAYS TOO SERIOUSLY. HE IS ABSENT FROM HIS BODY AND THEREFORE AN ABSOLUTE SCATTERBRAIN. I MUST SAY HE DOES MAKE ME LAUGH!
Mike
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replied to:  mvastano6164
NKingston
Replied to:  LETS ELECT NONO FOR PRESIDENT HE SUCH A KNOW IT...
RE: Post that begins as follows.
LETS ELECT NONO FOR PRESIDENT HE SUCH A KNOW IT ALL

SPOKEN BY A TRUE AMERICAN ?
-----
I'm glad we understand each other, Mike. I just feel sorry for you due to your inability to look at the reality that bites you on the nose.

I cannot apologize for your inability to see the truth in the name of propaganda, but apparently you do not keep up on current affairs, and you certainly don't know American history. That's your bad, as modern lingo puts it. My only regret is that what you call "propaganda" is actually true without yellow journalism. Maybe someday you will become literate enough to know who really is an absolute scatterbrain. You poor, fellow.

Wa lay-kum salaam, brother.

Nono

P.S. By the way, define "Mud Slinging" in the context that you used it, but, knowing what "Mud Slinging" means, I can tell that it does not apply in the context that I stated facts. If I did it with the intent to knock Christianity in America, I can see the context in which you use it, but in the context that you use it, it does not make sense because all I did was tell the truth regarding a state of affairs in America as regards Christian America, not with the intent to degrade them. Christian America does that to themselves. In the context that you use it, apparently, you pick up and use words and phrases before looking them up in a dictionary or in Wikpedia. It does not apply when there is no intent to degrade the state of human events in America or any specific individuals. I shared the facts, and you call it extreme propaganda. You don't like my so-called propaganda and cry "Mud Slinging." Before you know it, you will be saying, "Nono is persecuting me for Jesus' sake!" lol. You're a weasel, Mike. That's not just symbolically true, but now I'm mud slinging by definition. lol.
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lehmann520
Replied to:  RE: Post that begins as follows. LETS ELECT NONO FOR PRESIDENT...
I have said it before and I will say it again, fighting is getting us nowhere.

who cares who might be correct and who might be wrong...future history will prove one or both but probably a third option we cannot even see.

I've been thinking a lot about our presidents actions and listening to many people who relly think he's a great man and I'm beginning to think. they may be correct, or half correct.

the president is a good man and well intentioned, very much like Nono, but he's being lied to and the Liar is China...more specifically, Mao Tse Tong...

Nono, communism kills people...go find a Russian woman around seventy years old and ask her what communism did in her country. Millions starved to death while grain exports from the USSR rivaled the US's of the same era. People froze to death in the high rise apartments built by communists to make sure there was no one living better than anyone else.

Millions have died in China. Mao calls that breaking some eggs. Millions more would be dying now if the US had remained strong. That is VERY SAD and a wicked wicked sin, but, those deaths were not caused by America's wealth, they were caused by communist greed.
They throw infant girls into the sewers because of Mao's one child policy. This is happening now, as I look at my children, right now there are dead babies in the sewers in China...and THIS is the example we are following? Are we crazy?

Watch our president, he is going to go to China and ask them to please stop artificially holding down the value of their currency. He is going to ask them to do this so that manufacturing jobs can come back to this country.

China is going to say no...or they will lie and then not do it. and all hell will break loose and the lie will be revealed


This isn't about Islam vs. Christianity, it's about freedom vs.oppression, America and the free world vs communism and China. There is NOTHING good about communism except the dazzle of its lies. You MUST understand!

we must STAND against this as ONE people, united under God, for it is that alone that can defeat this enormous evil thing.

see, this is what I know. Prophecy made real. The Liar revealed. Who will stand in the temple?

Dawn
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replied to:  lehmann520
NKingston
Replied to:  I have said it before and I will say it again,...
Hi Dawn:

As I have said time and again, various types of governments have their place. True, Russians suffered as a result of Communism, but it was not Communism itself that caused suffering; it was the utilization of Communism in the wrong place at the wrong time. Russia was never set up ecologically for Communism to work economically, so of course people in Russia are going to suffer if they have Communism. However, had they set up a socialized democratic government that supported capitolism to within the limits of the country's "setting" or social environment instead, I'm sure in their political ambience more citizens would have survived and far fewer would have suffered. Beyond that, I do not agree that Communism kills. Ignorant application of that specific form of government is what can be deadly.

Regarding Communism in China, once again, Communism does not work the way it is being applied; HOWEVER, it works beautifully in the parts of China where the main product of the economy is strictly agriculture. Because of the non-agricultural industries, Communism is a total faux pas and does not fit into the picture of the whole scheme of things. China has very diverse ecological and economical settings from top to bottom and from east to west. I agree that China needs to change their form of government, but I don't believe that Communism should be halted all together for the sake of the agricultural communities. As for the one child policy and babies in the sewer situation, of course, that is just morally wrong regardless of what type of government is in place. That is not a government problem. That is a social morality problem that no government ought to allow, but, as I stated, that does not say much about the type of government. It MAY but not necessarily does say much about whether the form of government in place is good for the people or not. The ecological and economical set up of the various parts of the country will determine that fact.

When you apply Communism, Socialism, Democracy, Capitolism, a Representative Republic, Islamic Statehood, and so forth properly, they will all work either individually, in combination, or in part. The killer government is the government that is being used inappropriately in the wrong setting, and without regard to the ecological and economical needs that exist in that country. Jesus actually promoted Communism in the New Testament if you read it carefully, but that is only in the setting where the Jesus Movement is embraced by the people and in the setting that existed during his mission. The form of Communism taught by Jesus when applied by Christologists definitely would not work.

So you are absolutely right that this is not Christian versus Islam, but it indeed IS about the free world versus oppression. Islam (at least, the Qur'an) is mostly about the removal of Oppression, so an Islamic Statehood would work fine in combination of other forms of government depending on the ecology and economic needs of the country that is an Islamic State. Because of the United States Constitution, an Islamic State would work better in the political ambience of the United States versus Iran, Iraq, and so on where sheikhs, imams, and mullahs are the only literate citizens and the need for dictatorship works best; however, there is a difference between a truly Islamic dictatorship and a fascist dictatorship. The Qur'an forbids tyranny in any degree, and the leader is forbidden to oppress others and is required to be humble and equal with those whom he has been "elected" to serve. Any form of government outside the rules of the Qur'an are simply not Islamic, whether the majority of Muslims agree or not.

In concluding this thought on Communism, you are correct again in saying that we must stand against misapplied government of any sort, including misapplied democracy and deceptive capitolism, rather any form of government that harms the people, their ecology, and or their economy, but to fight against any "form" of government is ludicrous EXCEPT within the realm of its application to the needs of the people it is set up to serve.

Nono
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lehmann520
Replied to:  Hi Dawn: As I have said time and again, various...
God

Help

Us



Dawn
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mvastano6164
Replied to:  As-salaamu alay-kum, Mike! Mike said: Nono, Lets talk about the...
Nono,
You said: Quesiton: When did the Bible state that God became a human being? I am aware of the Christian dogma that makes this "seem" so, but I am not aware of it being in the Bible.
Answer: 1 Timothy 3:16 New International Version (©1984)
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

John 1:1 in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god
John 1:14 ...and the word became flesh.
Any questions?
Mike
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mvastano6164
Replied to:  RE: Post that began as follows. God is omniscient and therefore...
Nono.
RE: Post that began as follows. God is omniscient and therefore observes all truths. He sits... ----- Mike said: God is omniscient and therefore observes all truths. He sits at the apex of a pyramid of all known and unknown truths and perceives them all at once. He understands real and false truths and is therefore not caught off guard and cannot be surprised or mistaken .
Reply>
Nono says: First of all, let's understand that there is no such thing as real and false truth. Truth is the same yesterday, today, and always. All else is error. Truth is. Falsehood is error, whether you want to call it false truth or not, but false is false and truth is truth, and truth can never be false. Because all things are decreed by Allah, I can still agree that Allah is never caught off guard in anything.

I will give you two examples:
Example A
Remember Adam and Eve. Satan beguiled Eve into doubting God's word that she would surely die if she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan's words, through the serpent, contained some truth, didn't they? You shall not surely die… This is true in that they did not immediately die physically but false in that they did immediately die spiritually. Through devious cunning, he managed to weave truth and lies together in a manner that deceived Eve who, up to that point in time, had never sinned (disobeyed God). Have you forgotten that Satan's method of mixing truth and lies is his primary mode of operation!! Lets not be deceived as Eve was but let us believe the truth as presented by Christ himself who personally came to earth to deliver his message in the flesh!

Example B
In modal logic if a premise is necessarily true then it necessarily follows that the conclusion is necessary. Right! No! In spite of some premises being true is does not follow that a conclusion to a premise is in fact necessary. Lets assume a hypothesis: Someone may say that in order for someone to have absolute libertarian freedom of his will he must be able to choose between choosing or not choosing to do something. If God therefore knows before the creation of time that Nono will read this reply then it is not possible for Nono not to read this reply. So in order for Nono to be free he has to be able to choose either to read or not to read this reply. Nono, if god saw you reading this reply before the creation of the world would you be able not to read this reply? How can it be that what God believed you would do in the distant past will not come to pass? You in fact must do what he saw you doing or he is not omniscient! You therefore could not choose to do otherwise in this example. Here’s the false premise:
Premise 1: God is omniscience and can know only what is logically possible to know.
Premise 2: It is not logically possible for God to know future free will actions without determining those actions
Premise 3 : God necessarily does not determine future free will actions of his creatures
Conclusion: God necessarily does not know future free will actions.
This is a false truth in that is seems logical that god would not know future free will actions but it is false in that it does not necessarily follow that knowing those future actions means he in fact determines them.
Mike
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replied to:  mvastano6164
NKingston
Replied to:  Nono. RE: Post that began as follows. God is omniscient and...
Hi Mike.

You give a very intelligent argument here, although I don't believe in the concept of original sin as embraced by Christianity.

In your Example A that regards the fall of Adam and Eve, you present the beguiling of The Adversary (which is what the name Satan means). In this discourse, I find that the key to this point you present is "...ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Gen 3:5 (KJV) This is the reason that we eventually come to the Abrahamic Covenant with circumcision for all males in the covenant. It begins with what the Bible calls נְפִיל‎ nephîyl, those who came down from the sky. When the Anunnaki human engineers created our first parents, known to us as Adam and Even, there was a distinguishing feature with the creature they genetically manipulated with the DNA of the bipedal, indigenous creature of South Africa and their own DNA. That feature was that the Anunnaki males were born without foreskin. To be like the Anunnaki, the males in the covenant had to remove the foreskin, circumcision. Mankind from the beginning has sought to become like these seemingly immortal gods.

When you ask, "Satan's words, through the serpent, contained some truth, didn't they?" I have to say no, the Adversary, who in the Sumerian and Akkadian texts was actually Enlil, the brother of Enki, stated wisdom in the fullest.

What we're dealing with is truth in one setting not being truth in another setting. What is applicable to a child is not applicable to an adult, so the adolescent, going through the hormonal changes that they suffer from, gets caught up between the emotional/mental truth of childhood and physical/hormonal truth of adulthood. In the symbolism from the perspective of the adult, wisdom seems to portray childhood reality as a lie while at the same time wisdom from the perspective of the child seems to portray adulthood reality as a lie, so the wisdom of the serpent is symbolized as devious cunning. As sad as it is, puberty strikes Eve where the temptation are the result of these natural yet raging hormonal changes; she experiences temptations to do her own thing instead of submitting to the laws of nature. In other words, she reaches a state where she no longer is a Muslim, by definition.

If not for mankind by his hormonal changes feeling a need to no longer subscribe to the submission to the laws of nature prior to these hormonal changes, we would not ever have a call to Islam, that call through the Messengers of Allah who came in the flesh to command us to "Be saved!" "Submit to the laws of Allah!" "Embrace the religion of Allah!"

So when you conclude Example A with "Lets not be deceived as Eve was but let us believe the truth as presented by Christ himself who personally came to earth to deliver his message in the flesh!" we have to remember that in the Islamic perspective, you are absolutely correct! Many Messengers of Allah come in the flesh, but although they represent Allah, they are not Allah incarnate as the modal logic of Christianity applies the Greco-Roman theology of Mithras who just happens to have been born on December 25 500 years before Jesus came onto the stage as you indirectly presented in your presented case for Christianity.

In Example B, you present hypotheses that question the omniscience of God with respect to His determination of knowing what someone will do, thus questioning the concept of agency to choose, free will as you call it. It is the very type of modal logic you present that presents how Christianity has transgressed their bounds when justifying through their conclusive logic that Jesus was God in the flesh and that Paul was justified in teaching a gospel different than that of the Messenger, Jesus the Messiah. This modal logic is also the direct reason all the infidelities of Christianity support Paul more than their savior. This modal logic is alos the direct reason the mission of the prophesied Jewish Messiah was extended beyond the Roman rule to a universal salvation for all mankind from the grave.

In concluding my analysis of your two examples of modal logic as regards your attempt to lead me to believe in Jesus as you do, as well presented as your two examples are, the main point seems to be missed although you present them quite pointedly and quite intelligently, unlike I'm used to you doing. If not for mankind leaving that state of submission to the laws of nature, as all other things in nature from all that is way out there in the universe to the tiniest atom and sub-atom of every species and sub-species in existence naturally obey, there would not be a need for the imperative of Allah to "Islam," which means "Be saved!" "Submit to the laws of nature that Allah created!" "Be trustworthy!" "Be peacemakers!" "Surrender to Allah completely!" and everything else that the imperative of Islam means, and everything else contrary to what justifies tyranny and disobedience to Allah.

For that reason, you may have noticed that I expressly point out to Muslim and non-Muslim alike, that you cannot join Islam like you do a country club or religious organization. A Muslim is one who follows through with the command "Islam" as I translated at the end of the previous paragraph. Islam is the imperative of what mankind is called to do "again" as he did when he was first born, and that imperative is to be a Muslim. That is why I find your arguments very well presented because they bring to light what I have iterated to you all along, that Jesus was indeed a Muslim and as such calls us all to Islam.
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replied to:  Silent
mvastano6164
Replied to:  You have just met one who has gone thru your scriptures...asking...
JazaakAllah!

I don't understand why Allah would give creedence to the new testament documents when he was giving Muhammad the quran. That seems to be defeating the purpose. Is God the author of confusion? The quran does not honor Jesus if it doubts his message. His message is that he is the son of David. David spoke on this wiseand therefore king of Isreal Acts 2:30-33 Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne; he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Mike
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replied to:  NKingston
mvastano6164
Replied to:  Hi Mike. You give a very intelligent argument here, although...
Nono,

You say> your Example A that regards the fall of Adam and Eve, you present the beguiling of The Adversary (which is what the name Satan means). In this discourse, I find that the key to this point you present is "...ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Gen 3:5 (KJV) This is the reason that we eventually come to the Abrahamic Covenant with circumcision for all males in the covenant. It begins with what the Bible calls נְפִיל‎ nephîyl, those who came down from the sky. When the Anunnaki human engineers created our first parents, known to us as Adam and Even, there was a distinguishing feature with the creature they genetically manipulated with the DNA of the bipedal, indigenous creature of South Africa and their own DNA. That feature was that the Anunnaki males were born without foreskin. To be like the Anunnaki, the males in the covenant had to remove the foreskin, circumcision. Mankind from the beginning has sought to become like these seemingly immortal gods.

You do not really expect me to believe this fairy tale about aliens coming down from the sky do you?

You say>What we're dealing with is truth in one setting not being truth in another setting. What is applicable to a child is not applicable to an adult, so the adolescent, going through the hormonal changes that they suffer from, gets caught up between the emotional/mental truth of childhood and physical/hormonal truth of adulthood. In the symbolism from the perspective of the adult, wisdom seems to portray childhood reality as a lie while at the same time wisdom from the perspective of the child seems to portray adulthood reality as a lie, so the wisdom of the serpent is symbolized as devious cunning. As sad as it is, puberty strikes Eve where the temptation are the result of these natural yet raging hormonal changes; she experiences temptations to do her own thing instead of submitting to the laws of nature. In other words, she reaches a state where she no longer is a Muslim, by definition.

What kind of people are you to treat the truth of the bible like a this! You take the simple text and turn it into a mystery! What in the world are you talking about! HORMONAL CANGES ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR COTTON PICKIN MIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You want to talk to me you need to come down to earth and talk sensably! Where do you get off prescribing everything in the bible with a heading of Muslim. This is just you concept of false truth. Intuition tells me you are way out of line. And by the way who do you think you are trying to scold me with this bull of trying to join a country club. I don't hear anyone else complaining! How many times does someone have to tell you before it get through your thick head that we are living in a free country!!!! CHEERS TO YOU NONO!!!
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replied to:  Silent
mvastano6164
[POST DELETED]
HELLO SILENT,
AFTER REREADING YOUR REPLY I SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST ANSWERED SOME OF YOUR QUESTIONS MORE FULLY AND I AM SORRY THAT MY REPLY WAS SO LIMITED. SO HERE ARE SOME OF YOUR FORMER POINTS THAT I WILL TRY TO ANSWER.

( can't you understand a new book was revealed to save her honur... )
REPLY> I DO NOT BELIEVE ANOTHER BOOK WAS NECESSARY.

She was a True Example of Piety..wasn’t she…nothing comparable to her ‘following women’ these days…who wants rights for ‘committing sins‘….
REPLY>SHE WAS NOT SINLESS IF THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE IMPLYING? SHE WAS A WOMAN IN NEED OF SALVATION LIKE ALL OF US.

Now tell me what was the FAULT of that WOMAN AND HER SON that they are still being regarde DISHONOURED after an ocean of 2000 years have flown past????????????
REPLY> THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO ARE DISHOURING GOD ARE UNBELIEVERS BY NOT REPENTING.
Not by their unbelievers..but because of the 'believers' too..

My brother. just give me….. ONE RATIONAL CLUE/REASON THAT JUSTIFIES WHY OUR GOD WOULD LET HIS BELOVED MESSENGER DIE A DEATH OF DISHONOUR ON THE CROSS FOR THE SINS OF SUCH FOLLOWERS WHOSE MINDS ARE VEILED WITH DARKNESS OF SELF OBSESSION AND DELUSION
REPLY> THIS WAS PLANNED OUT FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME ITSELF TO BRING SALVATION TO ALL WHO INGEST JESUS BY FAITH.


know you won’t be able to answer many of the raised questions in the previous posts..but once you’ll try to answer them the VEIL OF YOUR MIND will be removed by Allah’s Hand, Inshallah!
REPLY> WHAT CAN I SAY TO THIS STATEMENT? YOU SEEM TO THINK I AM NOT GOD'S SON.

Prophet Jesus was supposed to be SAVED ..this is the tradition of OUR TRUE GOD.
REPLY> WHERE DOES IT SAY THIS IN THE BIBLE?

He didn’t die the death of dishonour…that’s what Quran stands for…to save the HONOUR OF A MESSENGER OF ALLAH…and YOUR HONOUR INTURN….if you can ever understand it…
REPLY>READ ISAIAH CHAPTER 53

but you can never claim you’ve found the TRUTH…
The TRUTH OF THE MATTER doesn’t reside in HOW ..it resides in WHY!
REPLY> JESUS SAIS HE WAS THE WAY.THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. JOHN 7:17 IF ANY MAN WILL DO HIS WILL, HE SHALL KNOW OF THE DOCTRINE,

WHY..? Because Jesus should have been saved..Jesus Honour should have been saved…God’s honuur should have been saved….! (PERIOD)
If He is the Lord of Justice…Jesus should have been saved..GENUINELY…(not by the replacement of any other human…remember…!( PERIOD
REPLY> JESUS CAME TO DIE ON THE CROSS> JOHN 18:37 THEN PILATE SAID TO HIM, “SO YOU ARE A KING?” JESUS ANSWERED, “YOU SAY THAT I AM A KING.... FOR THIS CAUSE I WAS BORN, AND FOR THIS CAUSE I HAVE COME INTO THE WORLD, THAT I SHOULD BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUTH. EVERYONE WHO IS OF THE TRUTH HEARS MY VOICE.'
So Brother reconsider ..all your beliefs and do not make this topic a “Sticky Topic’..
Or…..I can say…. lets just wait and see what happens when Jesus will be sent down..and will do what Muslim believe he would do..to impress people…literarily/un literarily…

We all will watch it live by CNN…together….okay!

REPLY> THERE WILL BE NO REPORTS ON CNN AS YOU THINK BUT RATHER WRATH WILL BE REVEALED AGAINST ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNES OF THOSE WHO HOLD THE TRUTH IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS> ROMANS 1:18- FOR THE WRATH OF GOD IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN AGAINST ALL UNGODLINESS AND UNRIGHTEOUSNES OF MEN
2 PETER 3:10 THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT, IN WHICH THE HEAVENS WITH A RUSHING NOISE WILL PASS AWAY, AND THE ELEMENTS WITH BURNING ... ... THAT THOU MIGHTEST CHARGE SOME THAT THEY TEACH NO OTHER DOCTRINE, ... 2 JOHN 1:10 IF THERE COME ANY UNTO YOU, AND BRING NOT THIS DOCTRINE, RECEIVE HIM NOT INTO
MIKE
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replied to:  mvastano6164
Silent
Replied to:  HELLO SILENT, AFTER REREADING YOUR REPLY I SHOULD HAVE AT...

MIKE'S REPLY IN BOLD: My replies to his replies starting wit S:

.....................................................

REPLY> I DO NOT BELIEVE ANOTHER BOOK WAS NECESSARY.

S: All Muslims know/believe/love a MAN named JESUS ..because of QURAN..

Are you trying to make suggestions to you GOD?
Why couldn't your Bible convince your own 'blood-brothers' that there was a JEW named JESUS, who was sent down from their GOD?

......................................................

REPLY>SHE WAS NOT SINLESS IF THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE IMPLYING? SHE WAS A WOMAN IN NEED OF SALVATION LIKE ALL OF US.

S: haha

She was one of the MOST PIOUS VIRGIN in Allah's eyes...

.......................................................

REPLY> THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO ARE DISHOURING GOD ARE UNBELIEVERS BY NOT REPENTING.

S: make 'em do so...YOU're here....!

.........................................................

REPLY> THIS WAS PLANNED OUT FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME ITSELF TO BRING SALVATION TO ALL WHO INGEST JESUS BY FAITH.

S: So Your God's PLAN....FAILED....BADLY....

...........................................................


REPLY> WHAT CAN I SAY TO THIS STATEMENT? YOU SEEM TO THINK I AM NOT GOD'S SON.

S: ?

...........................................................

REPLY> WHERE DOES IT SAY THIS IN THE BIBLE?

S: Read the stories of Prominent Prophets.

............................................................

REPLY>READ ISAIAH CHAPTER 53

S: A nice read...'God' seems quite 'helpless' to me...

..........................................................

REPLY> JESUS SAIS HE WAS THE WAY.THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. JOHN 7:17 IF ANY MAN WILL DO HIS WILL, HE SHALL KNOW OF THE DOCTRINE,

S: His message was for JEWS....'Sheep gone astray'

..........................................................


REPLY> JESUS CAME TO DIE ON THE CROSS> JOHN 18:37 THEN PILATE SAID TO HIM, “SO YOU ARE A KING?” JESUS ANSWERED, “YOU SAY THAT I AM A KING.... FOR THIS CAUSE I WAS BORN, AND FOR THIS CAUSE I HAVE COME INTO THE WORLD, THAT I SHOULD BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUTH. EVERYONE WHO IS OF THE TRUTH HEARS MY VOICE.'

S: I believe he FULFILLED the cause ..and under-went a NEAR-DEATH state...for the sake of STUBBORNS...

.............................................................
REPLY> THERE WILL BE NO REPORTS ON CNN AS YOU THINK BUT RATHER WRATH WILL BE REVEALED AGAINST ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNES OF THOSE WHO HOLD THE TRUTH IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS> ROMANS 1:18- FOR THE WRATH OF GOD IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN AGAINST ALL UNGODLINESS AND UNRIGHTEOUSNES OF MEN
2 PETER 3:10 THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT, IN WHICH THE HEAVENS WITH A RUSHING NOISE WILL PASS AWAY, AND THE ELEMENTS WITH BURNING ... ... THAT THOU MIGHTEST CHARGE SOME THAT THEY TEACH NO OTHER DOCTRINE, ... 2 JOHN 1:10 IF THERE COME ANY UNTO YOU, AND BRING NOT THIS DOCTRINE, RECEIVE HIM NOT INTO

S: Thankfully all Muslims believe
in JESUS a.s. and his MESSAGE..
I can't guarantee their RIGHTEOUSNESS...even after believing in MUHAMMAD s.a.w....Allah knows better what we all do...

You must take care of the those who are NOT sure of their category yet...whether they are 'sheep' or 'goats'...!!!!

GOOD LUCK!

....................

PEACE
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replied to:  Silent
mvastano6164
Replied to:  MIKE'S REPLY IN BOLD: My replies to his replies...
Silent,

REPLY>SHE WAS NOT SINLESS IF THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE IMPLYING? SHE WAS A WOMAN IN NEED OF SALVATION LIKE ALL OF US.

S: haha

She was one of the MOST PIOUS VIRGIN in Allah's eyes...

Luke 1:46-47>Mary's Song

46And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God MY SAVIOR,

Are you trying to make suggestions to you GOD?
Why couldn't your Bible convince your own 'blood-brothers' that there was a JEW named JESUS, who was sent down from their GOD?
The new testament chruch was made up of Jewish believers!

REPLY> THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO ARE DISHOURING GOD ARE UNBELIEVERS BY NOT REPENTING. S: make 'em do so...YOU're here....!
It is God who saves people not men!

REPLY> THIS WAS PLANNED OUT FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME ITSELF TO BRING SALVATION TO ALL WHO INGEST JESUS BY FAITH.

S: So Your God's PLAN....FAILED....BADLY....
It has been saving people for two thousand years + now!

I believe he FULFILLED the cause ..and under-went a NEAR-DEATH state...for the sake of STUBBORNS...
This is your fabrication because you do not want to hear the truth!

REPLY> JESUS SAIS HE WAS THE WAY.THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. JOHN 7:17 IF ANY MAN WILL DO HIS WILL, HE SHALL KNOW OF THE DOCTRINE,

S: His message was for JEWS....'Sheeps gone astayed'
Thats true but thats not the full story of the new testament.

REPLY>READ ISAIAH CHAPTER 53

S: A nice read...'God' seems quite 'helpless' to me...
You are speaking about God's word and that tone of voice sounds like blasphemy!

rophet Jesus was supposed to be SAVED ..this is the tradition of OUR TRUE GOD.
REPLY> WHERE DOES IT SAY THIS IN THE BIBLE?
PS: God does not need to be save!

Mike
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replied to:  mvastano6164
Silent
Replied to:  Silent, REPLY>SHE WAS NOT SINLESS IF THAT IS WHAT YOU...
...........
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replied to:  Silent
Silent
Replied to:  ...........
BOARD THE 'ARK OF GOD' I'M SAYING ...NOT ME...HAHA

THIS ARK HAS BEEN SAVING SOULS FOR ABOUT 15 CENTURIES AND GUIDING THE SHEEP GONE ASTRAY....

PEACE!
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replied to:  mvastano6164
NKingston
Replied to:  HELLO SILENT, AFTER REREADING YOUR REPLY I SHOULD HAVE AT...
RE: Post between Silent and Mike that reads as follows:

My brother. just give me….. ONE RATIONAL CLUE/REASON THAT JUSTIFIES WHY OUR GOD WOULD LET HIS BELOVED MESSENGER DIE A DEATH OF DISHONOUR ON THE CROSS FOR THE SINS OF SUCH FOLLOWERS WHOSE MINDS ARE VEILED WITH DARKNESS OF SELF OBSESSION AND DELUSION
REPLY> THIS WAS PLANNED OUT FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME ITSELF TO BRING SALVATION TO ALL WHO INGEST JESUS BY FAITH.
-----

I just had to interject here by quoting from the Old Testament.
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22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: 23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
Deut 21:22-23 (KJV)
-----
The assumption that Jesus died hanging from the cross is the Christian way of saying God incarnate is accursed. Hmmmm... Granted, I realize that this passage is regarding the law about what to do with the corpses that die hanging on a tree, but the part that is in parentheses indicates that there is something that was known at that time about one who "is hanged is accursed of God." Jesus, being God incarnate, God become flesh, as Christians intentionally misinterpret John 1, leads us to believe that the God, the mythical Jesus, of the Christians is a different God than the Jews and the Muslims.

I realize that all hell will break loose between me and other Muslims regarding this, but when the Qur'an speaks of the Nazarenes, I think it is referring to the Ebionites, not the Christological Christians.

Just a thought.

Nono
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replied to:  mvastano6164
NKingston
Replied to:  HELLO SILENT, AFTER REREADING YOUR REPLY I SHOULD HAVE AT...
RE: Post between Silent and Mike that reads as follows:

but you can never claim you’ve found the TRUTH…
The TRUTH OF THE MATTER doesn’t reside in HOW ..it resides in WHY!
REPLY> JESUS SAIS HE WAS THE WAY.THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. JOHN 7:17 IF ANY MAN WILL DO HIS WILL, HE SHALL KNOW OF THE DOCTRINE,
-----
This is good stuff because what Jesus is quoted as saying is what all the Messengers of Allah must represent. The passage you refer to reads:
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"5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:5-7 (KJV)
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In all fairness to the Christians, I have to admit that the context that this passage has been quoted time and again, Thomas was asking the future physical whereabouts of Jesus. To this Jesus says something quite profound, in context, actually saying, "I, Jesus, represent the way to Allah. I, Jesus, represent the truth. No one can return to Allah and enjoy His Magestical Presence without what I, Jesus, represent." So what did Jesus represent?

This is an important thing to understand because, also in John, we read of Jesus as follows.
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7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. John 16:7-15 (KJV)
-----
I believe that the author of this book had access to this great and wonderous speech because he says some rather important stuff.
Point 1: He says, "if I go not away, the παράκλητος paraklētos will not come unto you..." A paraklētos is one who advocates, but in the original meaning Paraklētos is "One who is highly praised," and as a result of this great praise, he is called "Wonderful, Counsellor" Isaiah 9:6 (KJV) In the 6th Century such a man with the same exact name was born. He was also deemed to be "Wonderful, Counsellor" by those who knew him. In fact, his name comes from the Akkadian root √ḥmd which filtered down into it's descendant languages of Hebrew and Arabic means "praise." In Arabic, when you see the particle "mu-" attached to a word, you can almost always count on that word as referring to a person. This man I mention had that particle attached to the root in his name. His name, as the author of John prophesies precisely, is Muḥammad, "One who is highly praised."

Point 2: In the narration represented as being from Jesus, he says, "I will send him unto you." If this is true, then it stands to reason that, if the paraklētos, the prophesied Muḥammad, is sent by Jesus, then it stands to reason that where the Pentateuch reads, "The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me..." Deut 18:15 (KJV), then "of thy brethren" must mean him whom Jesus "will raise up" or, in the words quoted above, Jesus "will send him unto you."

Point 3: Jesus is quoted as having said, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." Who else can possibly fit the fulfillment of this prophecy? The Spirit of Truth, that which Christians refer to as the Holy Spirit, is none other than Muḥammad because there is no prophecy related to the mythical Holy Ghost of the Christians as relates to the prophecies presented in Point 1 and 2.

Point 4: In context with the subject matter presented between you two, "JESUS SAIS HE WAS THE WAY.THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE [sic.]," we need to do exactly as is prescribed in John 7:17 as one of you pointed out, specifically "17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. 18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. 19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?" John 7:17-19 (KJV)

Putting the Qur'an to the test, that which Jesus has been quoted as saying "13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come" puts every single human being, regardless of religious orientation - Christian, Jew, Muslim, UgaBuga, WagaBaga... - in the position of proving that Muḥammad misled anyone from any truth whatsoever, that he ever spoke of himself, or that he ever spoke about anything other than what he heard, or that he prophesied blatently false prophecies. So far, Muḥammad passes all the tests that Jesus provided in three different chapters of the same gospel.

Point 5. One last but very important thing to add to this subject, Jesus was quoted as having said, "12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." If this is true, does this not mean that Jesus could not possibly have fulfilled the prophecy that reads, "...he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deut 18:18 (KJV) Jesus could not finish telling his people what God commanded him to speak because his people were not ready to bear the heat. That's the whole reason Muḥammad was sent to a people that was ready to bear the heat of God's words. Muḥammad was indeed the way to Allah, the truth, and no man meets Allah except by whatever else He and all other Messengers of Allah represent.

In conclusion, in proper context, Mike, who can disagree that Jesus, a Messenger of Allah, would say such a thing? I believe that Jesus did say that, just as all Messengers of Allah admit to who and what they represent.

Nono
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