Yes but Jesus wasn't talking about physical life or our material bodies, he was talking about our souls, our true selves which have been made in the image of God and there fore the only things capable of living forever.

The idea that there is a place populated by physically risen humans is a bit ...like a zombie movie IMHO...quite creepy that version of heaven, don't you think? Not that I'm accusing you of believing this, but I DO have my eye on Nissar...

Dawn

Hi Dawn, You have the right idea. Our physical bodies would not be able to survive eternity. However, the bible points out that we will indeed have our physical bodies at the resurrection. Remember that the bible states when christ returns there will be a great resurrection. At that point everyone who has ever lived will be resurrected with a new immortal physical body just like christ's body. He died and when he raised himself he raise his physical body along with his soul. Paul the aposlte states in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (New International Version)
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[a]
"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[b]
Mike

Mike,

the concept of physical redemption is, IMHO, a lie interjected in the truth that Jesus preached, part of that pagan mythology that the RCC incorporated into the bible.

I KNOW what I just said is offensive to you as a Christian. I apologize for having offended you. This is a primary reason I cannot accept your faith as my own.

God is not a physical being and believing in God is not a matter of material understanding. There is no language to describe God. The part of me that belongs to God is not my physical self. That belongs to this world and God cares nothing for it. My physical being is a tool that leads to greater understanding of God and the production of more physical beings that house souls which will then proceed on the path of greater understanding of God, that is all.

I am as much God's child made flesh as Jesus was. God lives in me. The part of God that lives in me is perfect, it is the physical and mental understanding of this part of me that is imperfect. If I could allow my soul to rule my life without interference from my physical and mental being....well, that would be SOMETHING, wouldn't it?

God made man in His own image....what you see in the mirror isn't being described in this statement

Dawn

Can't you see that this Bible is just a conglomerate of Jewish fairytales? There are no Angels, Devils, virgin births, resurrections or any of that stuff.

Religon is just a business exploiting non-intellectuals into giving them money.

regards,

WHAT ARE YOUR CREDENTIALS ON THIS MATTER? WHAT SOURCES DO YOU HAVE TO BACK UP WHAT YOU ARE SPEWING OUT? IT'S EASY TO POST SOMETHING BUT DO YOU HAVE ANY BACKING OR ARE YOU JUST ANOTHER UNHAPPY CRANK? AS FAR AS I CAN SEE YOUR PRESUPPOSING THAT THE BIBLE DOES NOT REPRESENT TRUE HISTORIC DOCUMENTS IS UNFOUNDED. YOU NEED TO SEE WHAT HISTORIANS SAY ABOUT THESE WRITINGS NOT AS FAIRY TALES BUT AS REAL HISTORIC RECORDS!
MIKE

I don't need credentials to see the truth. I am not a crank either, I am a person that has given some thought to this god stuff and concluded that its all a big lie. Even as a child I doubted it. The whole story reads like a cartoon movie. Wake up.

I SEE YOU ARE WISE IN YOUR OUWN CONCIET! HOW CAN YOU SEE WHAT IS A LIE UNLESS YOU CAN PROVIDE AN AUTHENTIC PROOF TO THE CONTRARY??? GIVING THOUGHT TO SOMETHING DOES NOT PROVIDE ANYONE WITH OBJECTIVE PROOF! MAYBE YOU SHOULD GROW UP AND READ IT LIKE A MUTURE ADULT AND THEN YOU WOULD SEE THE FOLLY OF LOOKING AT IT LIKE A CHILD. I CORINTIANS 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
MIKE

Lets see, may I ask you some questions?

How many gods are there?
Does god love you?
Do you pray to saints?

regards,

Lets see, may I ask you some questions? regards,


How many gods are there?
Reponse: 1

Do you pray to saints?
Response: No

Does god love you
Response: Yes

Mike, I have a question. I would like to know with whom I am speaking. Do you have a name?

Well, if you prayed to saints then that would admit more than 1 god.

If you believe god loves you, you might remember that during the 2nd world war the Nazis were systematically murdering the Jewish population. They were even torturing innocent children and pregnant women. Why did god not help any of these people? What better time in history to show himself and smite down those who are not obeying his commandments in such an organized way. But he chose to do nothing. Apparently he did not love them so why do you think he loves you?

Andrew, was the name of an apostle> John 1:39 But first Andrew went and got his brother Simon. Andrew said to Simon, “We have found the Messiah

Well, if you prayed to saints then that would admit more than 1 god. If you believe god loves you, you might remember that during the 2nd world war the Nazis were systematically murdering the Jewish population. They were even torturing innocent children and pregnant women. Why did god not help any of these people? What better time in history to show himself and smite down those who are not obeying his commandments in such an organized way. But he chose to do nothing. Apparently he did not love them so why do you think he loves you?

Response: I am a free will theist. So my responses to this inquiry will be based on the assumptions that intrinsic to human nature is libertarian free will.
I suppose when I consider the reason why evil exists in the world I must think of free-will. If we really have free will then we must be free to choose between two moral actions. Now if god intervenes and stops me from choosing to do something then he has in effect tampered with my free will . right? Is god necessarily responsible for the free will actions of free moral agents like you and I? You probably would say no. But you somehow think he should interfere with our free will to make things better, right? So according to your thinking god should intervene every time to make a bad situation better. That would mean he would be manipulating everyone’s free will and thereby causing us to not be free but rather be robotic, right? That would be a rosy world. I think you need to probe further on this subject as to why free will is necessary for free moral agents.
Mike

So you think that god believes that not interfering with peoples free will is more important than the lives of humans. That can't be right bro. The lives of the people who were murdered is part of the 10 commandments, the free will you speak of is not.

If I were god i would say, to hell with your (and everybodies) free will. the lives of these people is more important. Then I would appear with my magic wand and save them all. These Nazis have definetely gone astray and its time to put humanity on track.

But, alas, god has chosen not to do that and as far as I am concerned he can't have a good enough reason.

regards,

Andrew, Why not? Lets look at it from a theistic perspective. God never intended any of this to happen. So where did this evil originate? Certainly not from God! I think we agree on this. So somehow Nazi regimes come and go and as you say God does nothing. I can understand this is a problem. Its not a new problem. People have be questioning why a good God would allow evil in the world from the beginning of time. But why is God not intervening? Would you like to be remotely controlled by God so that your actions were not free? Is that what you want for me and others? I value my freedom and so does God. This is part of what it means to morally responsible. Yes in this sense God allows evil in the world and because of it people will suffer at the hands of those in power. Remember what Jesus said to Pontus Pilate when Pilate said to him, "Do you not know that I have power over you and can send you to your death", Jesus replied, No! You have no power over me unless it was given you from above". So why would God allow his only son to be taken by sinners and crucified on that cross? Why would Almighty God not intervene and save his only son? Why did he not intervene and stop Eve dead in her tracks and make her not disobey and rather make her unable to sin? It would have been a much nicer world and we would have all lived happily ever after not knowing the meaning of love. That is not the kind of world that God wanted to actualize. God knew before the creation of the universe what would happen if he created creatures with free will and he knew what Adam and Eve would do and in spite of His knowing this he created just that kind of world in which those events did come about. He had options. He is omniscient and knows all scenarios. He knew all the different possible worlds that could be created in which people like Hitler would not in fact carry out those atrocities and in which no evil existed in the world but that kind of world was a world in which free will was non existent. He is the kind of God that does not want to have people obey him out of determined force of will. That would make us mere automatons. Automatons cannot love they rather love or obey by remote control. God is looking for people to love him freely and obey him out of love. You would not want to marry someone who you did not love would you? You love by choice. You and I are in fact free. However, some peoples freedom allows them to hurt others. I am sure you know about what people can do to you when they have power over you. God is judging and keeping the books on this. There is a judgment day coming. All the inequities will be judged and all who disobey God will reap punishment. The ten commandments were given to Moses and provided the Israelites with a moral law. That moral law continues into our day. You break this moral law you will be punished. Jesus said, if you love me keep my commandments. Mere automatons cannot love. God is love. The bible states in genesis that God made man in His image. This image is reciprocal, God loves us and as in any real relationship the partner must be expected freely to love in return. Love has real expectations. It expects fidelity. When that fidelity is broken a rift occurs and many times the relationship is shipwrecked and beyond repair like many marriages. However, when mankind freely disobeyed God and created a rift with God, He decided to mend that rift by sending his son to die for our sins.. For god so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son that whoever believes (obeys) in him should not perish but have everlasting life. This is what he always intended for us.
Mike

Hi

I don't know the bible well enough to quote it but hasn't god intervened in situations of cruelty. Or, for sure gave Joshua the power to take Jerusalem, etc. These things pale miserably against saving the innocents from Nazis torture.

Your justification of gods lack of interest in helping people who cannot help themselves will not hold water. There is no justifcation, unless one considers the possibility that there is no god. Then one understands everything.

kind regards,

Andrew,
You are right about god intervening in the destruction of societies in particular when Israel invaded the land of Canaan. So what you are doing is examining the moral character of god . You seem to think you have trump card by calling into question, " the problem of evil" as an error in Christianity. OK. I will give you my answer to this question but I am not sure how you will receive it. Now you seem to have a very limited understanding of Christian theism so these deeper waters we are about to embark in are not for the faint of heart. When it comes to the moral foundation of all truth it has to be that truth is grounded in god himself. So also for morality it is evident that all people have an understanding of the differences between right and wrong. As I see it there cannot be any universalism for truth. There is only one road to truth and it goes directly to Jerusalem. From there it has it genesis in the revelation of god through the prophecies of the old testament and ends in the culmination of that revelation of god in Christ himself. Now back to your question. You are attributing a moral error with the god of the old testament. The old testament god has a seemingly different message than the god of the new testament. So how can they be the same god? When god revealed himself to the Israelites he was intending to groom them as a nation of priests for revealing himself to the world. This grooming intended to show how different he was from the other gods especially of those that the Canaanites worshipped. Among other idolatries the Canaanites had deities that required sacrifices of first born children. These were yearly rites that when viewed by god made it necessary for him to take initiatives and that is what was happening when he gave commands to kill cultures that had instituted such grave atrocities. The Canaanites worshipped a pantheon of gods and had instituted national celebrations. These celebrations were instituted by force of law. People of this culture would gather in yearly celebration to the gods to sacrificed and celebrate. The law required that a very large furnace would be constructed. The furnace was an idol in the form a man sitting cross legged with outstretched arms that were pitched upward leading down to his abdomen where a fiery kiln had been heated.. The Canaanite priests would send out authorities to gather from the populace all the firstborn for this rite. They would take screaming babies from their screaming parents and ready them for this rite. Sounds a little like the Nazi régime doesn’t it? The priest would then offer up prayers thanking the gods for the increase of the yearly harvest of crops and were sure to oblige the gods with a return of thanks. And so with huge crowds of Canaanites in waiting and large clouds of incense burning the smell of death was palatable! This speaks of the depravity of men hearts as these priests heartlessly began to smash babies down into the waiting arms of this idol. You can imagine for yourself this horror! Now you want to talk about atrocities what do you think about that! For four hundred years god waited patiently for the Canaanites to get their act together and repent of these practices. But they waxed worse and worse and created a pantheon of gods for more and more horrendous atrocities. When after four hundred years had passed he called his son (Israel) out of bondage and brought them out of Egypt and finally into the land of cannan to destroy those wicked societies. His message to those cultures back then was contained in believing in a Monotheistic god. Israel’s chant was behold Israel the lord our god is one. He was a different god. He never intended men to harm their own children like the Canaanites did. His message was that men should live by his commandments and live in fidelity to these commands. A man who walks with god and keeps his commandments is a man who is right with god and his fellow man. Now I think you have misconstrued the laws of god by your intuition that god is somehow under the same laws as men. Intuition does not always ring true. We must look deeper for answers and those answers can be best understood in seeing the work of god through an historic outworking of his revelation. When god gives moral laws those moral laws are not laws for god himself. He does not have to live by those same laws. He is a Law unto himself! He is the Lawgiver! He does not need to live by commandments as if he is somehow sinful. He is Holy! He cannot sin and there is no evil in Him! We on the other hand need to be changed because we are sinful and our sins will if left unchecked carry us into extreme depraved states. That’s what people need to face up to. “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”. If you imagine that god has to live by laws then your god is no longer the foundation of truth. He would be just you and me and in need of instruction in righteousness. It would make it impossible for him to intervene in such ways to do away with atrocities. God’s hands would be tied and he would be unable to bring us out of sinful idolatries. We would forever be in our sins. So in the old testament God had more of an ability to stop evil in the world by directly intervening as you think he should. But that part of history was under the tutelage of the law. With the advent of Christ the old tutor of the Law has been replaced with the new tutor of Grace. This tutor calls for all men everywhere to repent and follow the Son. This period of Grace is different from that former period. God cannot any longer intervene as he did under His tutelage of the Law. We now must see that what the law could not do by force, Grace does by changing people hearts moving them away from idolatry and its atrocities. As people ingest Christ by faith he changes them from within thereby changing the world for a better place.
Mike

Mike, thanks for your rather long winded explanation however, in order for me to follow any god, I have to have seen evidence of his goodness. In the Christian god or any modern theology, I don't see it.

I don't believe god should place himself above helping those who cannot help themselves. After all, many of them are saying prayers to him and pleading with tears in their eyes.

Once, I lived next to a very religious family. They were Baptists. They didn't drink coffee never mind alcohol. They were in church every Weds nite, sometimes Friday nights, for sure Saturday nite, Sunday morning, Sunday Afternoon, go home for dinner, and back again Sunday night. If that wasn't enough, they had bible classes in the house on Tues and most Thurs. (We were always invited but never went.)

Then, one day, they needed a favor for their daughter. She was in the hospital with leukemia and the whole congregation said prayers along with internet groups etc. The daughter died anyway in the same time as the doctors predicted.

I still receive Xmas cards from them but they no longer say "In Christ". So, if anybody deserved some kind of divine intervention, it should have been them. But they got nothing in return for their devotion to god. Zero! Nada. Not even a small extension in time.

At about this time, you will probably remind me that god works in strange ways, which I view as a cop-out because there is no other logical explanation they can give. One day the majority of the world will realize that praying to god is a total waste of time and accomplishes nothing.

kind regards,
andrew

Andrew,



You say> In the Christian god or any modern theology, I don't see it.
I say> Psalm 135:16

You say> I don't believe god should place himself above helping those who cannot help themselves.
I say> Hebrews 4:15

You say> One day the majority of the world will realize that praying to god is a total waste of time and accomplishes nothing.
I say > Psalm 14:1

Mike

You will never find God as long as you put yourself outside this world.

You want God to submit to you
That's not how it works
YOU give it up TO HIM

only then will all your fears and doubts and pain fall away
of course, you don't believe I have NO pain or fear or doubt, such a thing is incomprehensible to you.
yet, it is real and it is WONDERFUL

poor man
poor, foolish, silly little man

Dawn

I've rethought this reply and I find it...inadequate...let me try again

you question the goodness of God because of the evil in the world. Fine. You're right, bad things happen to very good, very faithful and devoted people, like your neighbors.

the problem with understanding why this should be the way things are if there is a God, is based on a failure to understand that, it is NOT our bodies that God cares about, it is our souls.

God is like a blacksmith and our souls are like a piece of metal He is forming into perfection. Bad things heat the metal and God uses our faith, or lack there of, to pound the metal into the shape He wants.

If the faith of the Baptist family was broken by the tragedy of death then that faith was not True. Their understanding of God was imperfect and so, back into the forge they go.

the horror of genocide is more difficult to equate. try this;
God has a lesson to teach not only each individual killed by genocide but also to those of us who look on it from the outside. Both things must be learned or the lesson is repeated, often.

God is not bunny and kittens and fluff, God is serious stuff, sometimes terrible stuff but, when a person has a True faith, not just a religious concept, the tragedies become not only bearable, but weightless.
I know this probably seems like a load of hooey to you but it's true.
sometimes I falter in my faith and I question the hardship in my life, especially when God takes someone I love. Every single time I have faltered then bowed my head and asked Him for help, He has lifted the burden and lightened my load.
Every
single
time.

the worst times in my life were when I arrogantly cast aside the notion that God could or would help me and tried to carry my grief, anger, rage, frustration etc by my self.

this material world matters not to God. give Him your soul and everything changes
this is what I meant when I said; give it up to Him
sounds like hokey christian rhetoric, but its true and it works

Dawn

Well, I must commend you for your style in this one. At least its polite and actually tries to prove a point. But, alas, you are right about me thinking its a bunch of hooey.

You are assuming that the Baptist family I spoke about did not have true faith. I think they did. They certainly spent time and money in their faith. It totally controlled their actions, the way they dressed, their friendly demeanor, and conservative lifestyle, their support of the church, etc.

regards,

What you've just said about the Baptist family having faith because of the way they dressed, acted, spent their money etc has NOTHING to do with True faith and understanding God.

Andrew, come on now, I don't for one hot second think you think any of that stuff has anything to do with God. You are too smart for that.

as for me ASSUMING the faith they had was not a True faith....if they were broken on the rack of grief, then I am not ASSUMING anything
I'm stating firmly...the faith they thought was real was not...they had no faith in God, they had faith in ideology, a church, a preacher, a set of rules, what ever

none of those things have anything to do with God

I'm stating firmly and without an ounce of doubt that having True faith in God will remove all burdens imposed on your soul by pain and grief and suffering.
yes, your heart will suffer and grieve, but your soul will not. You will have Grace

those people who think they understand faith and God because of a religion or a church or a leader or a book take the Name of God in vain.
He gave us rules to follow and this is one off His top ten list.
By taking the Name of God in vain, the hypocrites have destroyed the ability of smart people like you to allow God into your heart and relieve you of your burdens.
once, long ago, the Gospel had the power to change a man into a believer and put him right with God in an instant. That power has been corrupted and is gone from the world.

I'm sorry for that Andrew.
don't give up on God because man is weak and imperfect

Dawn

I'm confused, what would someone have to do before you would say that their faith is "true".

All religious people make all these complicated reasons why god has done this and not that. And then this talk of some invisible thing called a "soul", after which you usually get "Trinity" therapy.

All I can tell you is the next time someone tells me that god is all around me, I am going to make a citizen's arrest. Dawn, don't give up on the obvious, go sit under a tree and think about the stupidity of angels, devils, virgin births, resurrections, and the rest. Then you can join the enlightened people and live happily ever after. ( Opps, I mean until you die)

What makes you think I believe in any of those myths and legends? Do you think I hear booming voices and see angels in rays of sunshine?
there are no special effects in reality, Andrew.
and I have no religion, I cleave to nothing man produces, no book, no words, no statue, no code. I cannot argue religion for I believe it is a false thing

true faith is plain and simple, has no rules, no wrappings and can withstand the most terrible agonies this world can offer

As I write this, I AM sitting under a tree, the weather has been spectacular for the past couple of days and April is a month when tourists are sparse. As a local, I try to enjoy this picturesque town in peace when I can so I'm sitting in the park, over looking the lake, enjoying the day and the sunshine.

thanks for thinking of me. I hope you're not nearby. I'd really hate to spend a night in jail. I don't like jail. It smells bad and everyone is angry.
Yes, I see God everywhere.

God is simple. There are no rules, no virgin births, no angels and demons, no parting of the seas...just God...just light. That's all.

since I see the Light for what it is...doesn't that make me...Enlightened?

and yes, I break a lot of laws. I'm kind of a trouble maker here abouts, known for loud music (Marilyn Manson is one of my favorites but I adore ACDC and Nirvanna with an occasional dose of classical thrown in for good measure....) I also drive far too fast for the local cops ( I once held an amateur ranking as a rally car driver and still drive a wickedly fast Evo8)I've flirted with all kinds of drugs( not since I had kids) and drink like a fish, smoke like a chimney and yell at the tv while watching the snews or a bad movie.
I love scifi and military fiction and TSElliot...what rough beast...and Tolkien and Feynman and all things historical.

I'm NOT a prim, proper, buttoned up nun like woman. I LOVE life. I LIVE life. Hell, I'm not even wearing a bra, much to the delight of the gentleman at the picnic table.

and you pity me because I see God in the trees

LOL
Dawn

Well, you have neatly sidestepped my question you had replied to. But from your reply I can guess that you are what is called an agnostic.

What is meant by your statement that "I'm glad your not nearby because I (you) don't want to spend the nite in jail". I can't relate that to anything we are talking about.

As far as seeing the light, its your programming of when you were a child and were being brainwashed into this religion thing. Children are very maleable in the hands of adults. I forgot which dictator it was that said "Give me the children of the land and I will own the land".

Kids and dogs love me also but its easy to please either one. The adults are the challenge.

The most successful people in the world are those that have this ability to convince people they are right when they are wrong. In other words, good salesmen. I can give you Hitler, Lee Iaccoca, Cheney, and most probably, Jesus himself.

see ya

You win. you're right and I'm wrong.
I can't argue unless we have a point of common reference. We have none.

Dawn

The Bible we have today does not represent all the gospels that were written.The first writings occured about 60 years after Christ.It was at the Council of Nicea ordered by Constantine that the accepted version of the Bible was made.That is to say that the Bible was written by the permission of the Roman Empire a political move by Constantine to consolidate his power.Below is a list of some of the gospels which were not accepted.

1 The Gospel of Thomas

2 The Gospel of Mary

3 The Gospel of Judas

4 The Apocolypse Of Peter

5 The gospel of the Gnostics

This is not all of gospels that were written but It illustrates that there were many versions of Christians and if so then the Christianity of today is just one of many that do not exist today. And remember that the cross of Christ was preceded by the sword of Rome.

You are quite right my friend and those gospels that were left out are no more or less truthful than the ones that were kept.

regards,

What you say in bold type is nothing more than your ego. Modern humans have been around for nearly 200,000 years.We had rituals for our long long before any gospel was written.Even Neanderthals had a belief in an afterlife and evidence shows that they cared for those who were old or inferm.Your expression of god is one of a male ted society of pastorial shepherds who first came to Egypt around 1700BCE.They were closely related to The Hyksos whom Amose expelled and were possibly expelled by Amose also.At least the ancient Egyptians honored Isis as well as Osiris and women in ancient Egypt were treated with more respect than the Cananite ancestors who you seem to admire.I would like to hear your response to these historical accounts mentioned above.

Well it is interesting to hear your thoughts on rituals and gospels but is there such a thing as absolute truth?
Mike

I am merely a limited human being.I only know from my limited experience.Compare what you know from all the knowledge man has created and you will realize that you are very limited also.Go to a university library and try to read every book it has.You would not live long enough to read every thing we know.You would find out that what you know is very little more that of an illiterate person.There are three words an educated person can realize:I Don't Know. As the ancient Egyptians would say" May your heart be as light as a feather"

Again, Do you think that there are any absolutes in life? If you relinquish all knowledge to mystery then there remains only confusion about truth. You must make a stand somewhere or else you become like a cloud that is pushed about by every wind of doctrine or ideology.

Mike

To me absolution is stagnation.It would lead to our end because as humans we would not be able change and not being adaptable would perish. That ability to adapt to change is why we are here today.The only certainty there is is uncertainty itself.What a wonderful world it would be if we were able choose what we needed.Of course such a world does not exist and if it did life would lose much of its meaning.This is just the opposite of absolutism. Somewhere inbetween is flexibility.

Thamk you for your beautiful poem

Thanks for you comment on my poem. Now you are being coy with me and so I need to understand what you believe. Lets see , I am not trying to be aggressive in my probing only I want to understand your take on life. Concerning absolutes you say that there should be none if I follow you. If that is so then when you say , " The only certainty there is is uncertainty itself" am I to understand that this statement is also an uncertain statement. That is to say is the statement you made an absolute statement. If it is then you have made an mistake in evaluating absolutes making your own statement true and others suspect!
My understanding of absolutes is certain. For example , If I drive into a gas station and see the price of gas at $ 3.00 can I be sure that I will only pay $ 3.00 and no more? I would say yes and I believe everyone else would agree. Is this not an absolute? If you agree then there must be more absolutes. If there are more absolutes in life then there must be an absolute truth about life. Do you agree? The implications of absolutes means that life is understandable and reasonable. This gives us hope for understanding why we are here.
Does this sound right to you? Let me know.
Mike

In my reading of Steven Hawkin's A Brief History of time I learned about Heismans principle of uncertainty.In it he says we can only approach certaintity.That means that our universe is variable not fixed.Even Albert Einstien could not accept this new idea saying that our universe could not be like the rolling of dice.At any moment there is an infinite number of possibilities. You cannot say that our universe operates as an absolute and then say at the same time say we have free will.Our universe is dynamic not static. We evolve,we adapt,we change and I hope for the better.Even the principles of supply and demand constantly change.What you pay for today may not be the same tomorrow. Free will evolved when we evolved.Free will is what we are as human.It was not given to us by some abstract diety but has been a defining of our humanity.

Amose1550bce
05/08/10replied to: mvastano6164

Do you consider any of these statements that you have made to be absolute statements of facts?

The Bible we have today does not represent all the gospels that were written.

The first writings occured about 60 years after Christ.

It was at the Council of Nicea ordered by Constantine that the accepted version of the Bible was made.

That is to say that the Bible was written by the permission of the Roman Empire a political move by Constantine to consolidate his power.

Below is a list of some of the gospels which were not accepted.

1 The Gospel of Thomas

2 The Gospel of Mary

3 The Gospel of Judas

4 The Apocolypse Of Peter

5 The gospel of the Gnostics

This is not all of gospels that were written but It illustrates that there were many versions of Christians and if so then the Christianity of today is just one of many that do not exist today. And remember that the cross of Christ was preceded by the sword of Rome.

According to your premise on absolutes none of what you have written can be taken as true, right!
Mike

Who peed in your corn flakes.
There are people who believe in god ,And Jesus ,the prayers are Amswered.and They don't spend one cent...
Crawl back under your rock..
The lord is apon you,

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.8 Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.

2. Does God exist? The universe had a start - what caused it?
Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light, which we now call the Big Bang. This was the singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself.

Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."9

Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in Physics, said at the moment of this explosion, "the universe was about a hundred thousands million degrees Centigrade...and the universe was filled with light."10

The universe has not always existed. It had a start...what caused that? Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter.

3. Does God exist? The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?
Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.

How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?

"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."11

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."12

4. Does God exist? The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.
All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billion of these letters in every human cell!!

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.13

Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.
I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.

6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God revealing himself to us.
Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.

He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."14 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."15

Three things:
1. There is no such thing as "objective proof" evidence is just that, it is neither subjective nor objective.
2. The burden of proof lies on the one that makes the original statement that is being contested, which in this case is your claim in the existence of god.
3. Could you please type without caps, it is fairly clear that you are able to.

-Sharc

I beg to differ! There is objective proof, just like there are absolutes in life. If absolutes exists then objective truth follows. If I drive down the street and stop in a gas station and the price of gas is $ 2.70 a gallon then it is for sure that I will pay no more than $ 2.70 a gallon. I believe this and so does everybody else. This is an example of an absolute.
Its that simple!

How does an absolute relate to objectivity? Objectivity is characterized by a dispassionate approach to something, it is a form of reasoning. There is no such a thing as dispassionate proof.

Many people pray ...but that doesn't always mean there prayers will be answered,I have seen the goodness of the lord...and I have had prayers answered,
We live in a small town in the interior of British Columbia.
When everything we looked to buy in the 2 surrounding towns 40 miles
in either direction of us,was turned down,and I was about to give up,on ...ever getting off the over crowded highly polluted coast of B.C.
The Lord guided us to where we are now...we are in a rural town,of 400
people ...we have running creeks on either end of the town...and little if any polution..
And though the home we bought sight unseen had several problems that we
let it go ...our Lord took me by the hand and lead me to a mobile ,,
that had been for sale ...in the park below our past home,,,
I contacted the owner ,and bought the mobile out right for 4000.00
Dollars...
I own my home ...we pay a pad rent of 150.00 Amonth,and we have many friends here ...that we never had on the coast ...as most poeple there are to stuck up...to try and make friend's...with anyone.
When my husband couldn't get work in the industry,...and we were hungry,,we prayed and not only did the work come,,,but food was delivered to our door,
And when my husband had a minor stroke a few months ago,and a dream I had for several years of starting my own business,I prayed for guidance ...and the lord delivered ....I am running a small hot dog cart, 75 yards from home,my husband is well enough to help...and he is again getting the work that ...he is trained to do,

This family may have prayed for the recovery of their daughter,
But she was called home to the Lord...for only reasons he knows...she had learned the lessons god had given her to learn...her time on earth ...was only for a short time,and not for a life time..
Not all people live to a ripe old age...and the sins of the father ,will fall apon their sons for 7 generations...so the daughter,learned her lessons,and was taken home .
But to the parents it was a lesson in humility ...
The lord tested their faith ,and at the loss of their daughter ,they lost their faith,,...
all their years in the church they were not parying in the way god
wanted them to pray....they were as false profits ...

Your prayers can be answered ...if you are not praying for the moon ,but little prayers are answered in their own time...
There is goodness in the lord ..you only have to look...
And i don't spend day after day on my knees in Church...I will not attend a politial arena...and as such the only church in our little town seems that way...the lord is in our home...he is everywhere,
and the church is only a boilding,the earth ,is the house of the lord.

Amanda

I am not sure what you mean when you speak about physical reality. Are you saying that our senses are not to be trusted? Or are you relating ideas associated with Einstein’s special theory of relativity.
Under Einstein's special theory of relativity, no two observers moving through space at different speeds — and we are all moving through space — see things the same way. For example, observers moving at different speeds will measure the length of a stick differently. They will also measure the time it takes for the stick to pass by differently. Time is relative to the speed and position of the observer. On earth, we are all moving through space at the same speed, so reality seems objective. It is not this way.

Einstein’s equation only shows the limits of the physical universe. The theory of special relativity does not necessarily show that we cannot be objective observers. This creates an unknowable world of non-relational reality. Our co-dependent states are part and parcel of the kind of universe we live in. We live in a tensed universe and as such our past, present and futures are co-dependent and therefore objectively understood by a community of beings collectively. That is why the gas station price makes sense to all who are looking for a true statement of fact concerning something we all are objectively seeking to understand.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_(frame invariance)
The concept of objectivity in science means that qualitative and quantitative descriptions of physical phenomena remain unchanged when the phenomena are observed under a variety of conditions. ...
The state of being objective, just, unbiased and not influenced by emotions or personal prejudices; The world as it really is; reality; That which one understands, often, as intellectually, of all and everything, of what is sensed as felt, thereof; That which is perceived to be true to ... of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers.

That's a question that nobody will get the answer to until they themselves go through it. We can speculate according to our interests and knowledge, but to know definitely is just impossible.