Under the Mosaic Law a theocracy maintained social morality ( Divine Command Theory). Because we no longer live under a theocracy Is it appropriate to make laws to restrict morality per se? Someone may say that the Law of Christ is superior to the Mosaic Law and as such shows that no laws should be put in place to relegate morality beyond the gospel message.

You say that " 'we' no longer live under a theocracy..."

The use of "we" implies that the audience addressed is included in the living condition. To what country (or group) are you referring? As an American all my life, I certainly have not lived under such a previous estate.

To address the remainder:
History has shown that a society firmly built upon the family unit stands the best chance of survival. And, morality revolving around a shared set of values is responsible for fair treatment between family units - building a society. Trust and values are first shared at the family level.

Morals constructed on relativistic bases are not easily translated to common usage, as all must compromise their own individual standards to accommodate the group. In doing so, the remaining standards must be fundamental and robust for a society relationship to survive.

Hedonistic societies soon dissolve because the individual interests eventually supercede those of the society. The Bible examples were Sodom and Gomorrah. The "freedom" of amorality led to depravity and brought about destruction.

The Mosaic Ten Commandments were summarized by Jesus in His dissertations, by collecting those referring to man's relationship with God under one and those regarding relationships between human beings under the other. Jesus didn't obviate the Mosaic. He just encouraged the attention to shift from physically going through the outward trappings of obediance to emphasize the inward obedience is equally important (and that the inward is a prompter to the outward).

The morality He suggested also emphasized the natural order of things. The pairings (man and woman) are natural, and any other pairing is not. No children come from a union of like-gendered partners. Since it was not natural, it was discouraged. The morality espoused by the Mosaic and the Christian (if implemented) are robust and can reduce the risk of societal dissolution.

Societal rules to constrain or prohibit the Mosaic/ Christian morality will remove common morality in favor of the individual - pointing the society in the direction of dissolution (as one's own personal morality is declared equal to another's, which may be in diametric opposition to the first). Disagreements, in such an atmosphere, are irreconcilable leading only to chaos (and fundamental animalistic survival). The human being was given a brain of tremendous capability. I'd hate to think that the ultimate end is for its advantages to be nullified by its lack of exercise.

I'd say the topic "Is it appropriate to legalize same sex marriages" isn't in the best interests of societal survival.

Yoda55
06/30/11replied to: silverglassYou say that " 'we' no longer live under a theocracy..."

The use of "we" implies that the audience addressed is included in the living condition. To what country (or group) are you referring? As an American all my life, I certainly have not lived under such a previous estate.


Technically speaking no one living today lives under a theocracy like the Israelites did under the Mosaic Law. That is a fact whether or not you believe the law or specific parts of it like the Ten Commandments remain viable. I am reading you right? So specifics of the Mosaic Law like the ordinances and even parts of the Ten Commandments are not transferable today.

For example, Keeping holy the Sabbath or transferring over a former promise like, Honoring your mother and your father which will lengthen you life. These laws and former promises are part and parcel of the old laws. Those laws and others were given to begin a process of a plan that was conceived by God before the foundations of the worlds. . As such they form a beginning point of relationality between God and men that would not be fully realized until the Grace of God appeared unto all men. This means that enforcement of laws that constituted morality would not persist. For eventually the plan demanded that obedience would not be instituted by a regulatory committee within the community who would write laws of obedience but rather the laws of God would be written upon the hearts of men. We no longer are under the old schoolmaster.
Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Galatians 3:25
Within this framework of relationality between God and men I do not believe that it is our job to institute laws to govern morality. Let the dead bury the dead. Proclaim the gospel and let the grace of god call all to repentance.
Now that New York has legalized same sex marriage it has begun a process or a movement within the rank and file of liberal ideals that promises that our culture has begun a good thing:
Obama said the New York debate “was emotional, but ultimately, they made a decision to recognize same-sex marriage.” “I think that's how things should work...
Obama: NY Gay Marriage Vote "A Good Thing"‎ - New York Daily News (blog)
Obama praise for New York gay marriage law‎ - AFP
Within the laws of the land we live in we do not necessarily have to agree with what we may feel is abhorrent to us but we should not think we can enforce any morality upon those who do not agree with us. I am unwilling at this point to believe we can create laws to regulate lifestyles? It is coercion and I do not think the gospel message is coercive. The gospel is life changing. One person at a time to create the kind of world which God had initially envisioned.
Anyway I do not think that the gay lifestyle is a threat to the family unit. It is not a model of marriage most cultures hold to. As far as I know it cannot be held up to and compared with the traditional concept of marriage as being similar.

I guess I missed the thrust of your thread. Are you suggesting affirmation of the gay marriage concept from the viewpoint of atheistic perspective (devoid of theological reference)? Or, are you looking for a prediction of societal consequences, given that it is permitted by secular law?

Yoda55
07/02/11
replied to: silverglass
I guess I missed the thrust of your thread. Are you suggesting affirmation of the gay marriage concept from the viewpoint of atheistic perspective (devoid of theological reference)? Or, are you looking for a prediction of societal consequences, given that it is permitted by secular law?

Sorry for the ambiguity. I guess that I am hinting at the second question. Yes what will Christian people assume as we move from the abstract possibility of a unification of our nations acceptance of full gay rights to its eventual solidifying into concrete reality.
The more unified the secular moral conscience becomes the more understanding is required from the minority to be politically correct.
What can be done once it is ratified into law? Tant pis!

Lets assume this to be a possible scenario.

I Imagine that further developments not yet defined by this possible scenario could lead one to believe that someday church affiliation would be under state’s jurisdictions of not being allowed to have its bylaws to state or voice or disallow membership based on gender bias!
Am I being an alarmist? Is this too hard to conceive as a possibility?

Would not the state then have the power of moving the institution of the church in a direction, not yet in jeopardy, of evolving into an apostate condition! I mean hasn't this already begun in some churches?
All hell would break loose within the rank and file of Christendom, as churches would then be scrambling to bail themselves out of the whirlwind. As a possible consequence church’s might then close the doors even tighter by seeking legal advise with the intention of then drawing up legal documents to insulate themselves from or to hinder this possibility?
I am sure you can conceive of other possible scenarios within this vein.
Hold on to the seat of your pants!

Reply to silverglass quote: "The more unified the secular moral conscience becomes the more understanding is required from the minority to be politically correct."

The "secular moral conscience" is problematic. It is gravely liberal in its tendencies. Since secular morals are subjective by nature, it will take some effort for it to compromise into a common basis. Being subjective, each individual holding a set will differ from others. Extremes in these personal, subjective morals will prove troublesome.

Morals must be universal and objective to work. A societal attitude of "self over anything (or anyone) else" will spiral into depravity and dissolution of the society. No society can withstand it. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, ancient Rome and the paired Sodom and Gomorrah communities are prime examples of the unnatural and hedonistic tendencies which undercut the fabric of those societies. They failed. They ceased to exist. History has proven it - and we know the admonition about repeating history...

If the majority of voters in a country are religiously oriented, then any law passed is likely to be challenged through repeal processes. They *must* challenge it!

If the legislative organizations try to circumvent the national constitutional safeguards (regarding government keeping out of religion), civil disobedience will skyrocket. The volume will swamp the legal system - courts and correctional institutions.

The problem with homosexually inspired social contracts is that the homosexual community first claimed that the condition was chemical/DNA-based ("I can't help myself"). Now, they claim its a social freedom preference issue... THEY CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. Either it's an irresistable state of mind and body, or it's a choice.

..........

The churches openly embracing homosexuality as a normal condition (not considered sinful) will eventually find out how wrong they are. Particularly in the three traditionally monodeity religions, the open tolerance of unrepentant sin flies in the face of the fundamental beliefs in those faiths. Either the homosexual members will be counciled and change their behavior, or they'll reject their religion and become atheist, or they'll leave that particular congregation and seek another.

If they spawn another "protestant" denomination, the pressure will be released to some extent. But, if the government seeks to influence the tolerance, then they may employ tactics like removing tax-free status for those denominations resisting liberal imposition. In attacking the churches financially, the churches may become unviable and close - achieving the purposes of these liberal and homosexual adherents. In effect, they will stamp out traditional religion.

As an American... If I were not a Christian, and having served in the Armed Forces, then I'd resist the secular tampering with the Constitution (where I swore an oath before God "to support and defend it against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC"). Subversion is a tactic employed by radically liberal political forces to undermine government.

As a Christian, I would necessarily resist the corrosive effect that this secular "freedom" will have on American society. I am compelled to preach scripture to them, giving those who can be swayed salvation from certain distruction. Either way, I cannot stand idly by and watch it happen.

Yes, I believe we are of the same mind.
Whatever will happen will certainly not happen easily. I would think that the community as a whole couldn’t be swayed without a fight. I will have to put a steak in the claim that the church will have a say so. That is the nature of our rights as co-creators in this world We are in a battle. This world is a war zone where visible and invisible forces are in a struggle to make it their aim to win. Knowing that we have a God who is omniscient and all powerful ensures that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church.. However, we must understand that It's not just God's fight against evil but the church needs to step up to the plate with prayer for assistance, as this is how the kingdom of God is spreading through the earth and winning this war . Thanks for your input.
I am disappointed no one else has entered into this discussion. I thought it would be of more interest.
Later, mike

Just joined today and so here is my two cents by His grace:

Referencing the Presbytery: an overhead ruling authority over the Presbyterian churches: they had accepted gays and lesbians to the minister positions without checking with the churches overall.

The local Presbyterian churches united: about 31 churches which had to include those throughout the county and maybe a tad beyond: to protest and make a statement in regards to that ruling by the Presbytery. No response has returned.

We see the same thing in Methodist churches: protesting and yet in spite of their local outcry: the ruling governing overhead remains unchanged.

In Revelation: God hates the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes: not the deeds, mind you, but the doctrine which is different: the deeds refers to sexual immorality: which is definitely the results from this doctrine of the Nicolaitanes which is having a ruling heirarchy over a chain of churches.

There should be no authority outside the local church or the local assembly other than Jesus Christ because He is the Head of the body. We certainly see the results for ignoring this doctrine that God hates: not the churches have the deeds of the Nicolaitanes: sexual immorality.

But such making deals with the world had already begun when the Presbytery agreed to allow homosexuals to become members of the congregation. Is it any wonder or any mystery as to why homosexuals think they can jockey for the minister position?

1 Corinthians 5th chapter has Paul speaking against accepting a brother as a fornicator in the assembly. If he did not repent, he was to be put out in the hopes that he may repent: which he did and Paul had to write another letter to the Corinthians to let him back in.

So why did they allow homosexuals to become members of the congregation?

The church I have formerly gone to has allowed christian believers to live together: and even rationalized masturbation: using a video of some preacher citing five things when it is wrong to do it, but otherwise: he says it is okay: even a preacher from the pulpit declared that it is not an unforgiveable sin to get a divorce: and yet that message was nothing short but giving grace to commit sin which God forbids.

It is one thing after the fact: it is another to preach from the pukpit to remove all inhibitions and go for it.

Are the elders sleeping? So much for managing God's House. Is it any wonder how churches make leniency for someone suffering in the flesh? Then we can see how homosexuals were accepted as members of the congregation.

So now comes what? For a church to withdraw from the Presbytery? Can't. Somehow, the Presbytery owns the building. So the church continues: having the Presbytery misrepresenting the name of their church in what that Presbytery church stands for:

Although: counting the other overlooked sins and seeing nothing wrong with having homosexual members: they are not really standing for anything. In the eyes of the world: they would just be seen as hypocrites and that is what a church gets for making deals with the world.

So what does a believer do in a compromised and unrepentent position of a church, but to withdraw? One can only hope that the Lord will raise up similar minded believers and hold fellowship in their homes instead.

The Gospel is not all we are to be witnesses of in standing apart from the world. If we do not preach what is sin: then sinners will fail to see their need for the Saviour.

John 7:7The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

John 15:17These things I command you, that ye love one another. 18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

John 17: 13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

1 John 3: 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Romans 6:5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Hebrews 12: 1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2 Peter 2: 9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

1 Peter 4:1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 3For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 7But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

1 Peter 4:12Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 14If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

1 Peter 5:9Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. 11To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 John 3:3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

John 8: 30As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Jude 1:24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Being reconciled to God through Jesus Christ is referring to the relationship we are supposed to be having and living with God through Jesus Christ. If the churches fail to make disciples of believers: then it should be no mystery as to how this nation can go so wrong and so fast or why God has to judge His House first.

1 Peter 4:16Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Hello Enow, Good to have you onboard. I am pleased with your taking time to respond with your heartfelt concerns. I have been enlightened by much of what you have to say. I think I probably am overreacting to what has been going on concerning the recent ratification in New York's gay marriage bill. I have struggled with being politically correct for many years only to find myself not taking a stand one way or another but becoming silent in the face of the controversy. It has now become apparent that it is ok to disagree, as I must take a stand. If the powers in high places are working to their goals of destruction then we should not be ignorant of their devices. Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms Leviathan should not deceive us as we are walking in the light of His word. Psalm 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.
If I sound like a bible thumper and have an apologetic that is reminiscent of an apocryphal messenger then I can only point to the message as it was handed down to me from those whose first witnessed the truth. If they reject our words about the truth they are rejecting the original messenger of which we are his. So we preach the gospel and the spirit convicts the world of sin and convinces them of righteousness. Beyond that if they don, t repent then we should continue to tell others. Finally we should be able to debate and reason and even passionately wield the word in defense of holy living.
Later, Mike

Hello Mike,

Yes: by not conforming to the world but to the image of the Son as being our witness, we can only do so by our faith in Jesus Christ to lead us and guide us in the way we ought to go: and having His words as kept by those that loved Him and His words in the King James Bible: I find that by His grace and by His help in understanding His words, I am able to discern what is good and what is evil: as well as what is of faith and what is not of faith in order to follow Him by the grace of God.

So there is a need to be a Bible thumper, and may God cause the increase to enable those that hear to trust Him at His word so that they may find His strength and His promises in their walk with Him so that they may know Him and the power of His resurrection because the just living by faith in the Son of God in continuing in His words is how we as believers are living the christian life.

I find that sinners need to see the hope in Jesus Christ and not hear of religious christians speaking of their commitments. Sinners are not going to find the will in themselves to stop sinning by making a commitment to Christ or to follow Christ when sin has dominion over their lives. Sinners need to know that the same faith we place in Jesus to save us as Our Saviour is the same faith that believers are to apply towards Jesus in being our Good Shepherd as it is for this purpose that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners from their sins so that they will no longer live in them: thus sin shall not have dominion over our lives anymore.

It is by the grace of God we are living the christian life, and our hope is in Christ: not in ourselves by keeping any commitment or promises to Him: but by faith in the Son of God. The same faith that saved us has to be the same faith in how we live the christian life.

So believers should speak less of themselves in regards to any boast of vanity in keeping commitments and promises because we cannot finish by the religious flesh what He has begun by the Spirit. Indeed: that is considered a false witness since to be a true witness is to speak of another in seeking the other his glory which is Christ Jesus.

So when sinners believe the lies of the world in that this is who or what they are: then they need to see why Jesus came: to destroy the works of the devil in their lives.

That is why our hope is on Christ Jesus: not just for salvation, but for living the christian life by faith.

This is why sinners would praise God for seeing His work in us and have hope in seeing His work in their lives as well.

So it is not only sin we have to speak against: but we have to speak against these religious bondages that Christ did not say to anyone to make: because only God can do God's work in us as it is to His glory for doing this. That is why we are to deny ourselves as being able to make ourselves good, pick up the cross and follow Him by faith.

All relationships exists on trust. Little children were free to come to Jesus because all they can do is trust Him at His word. The religious of the world would demand more as many mighty men and nobles would respond to making such commitments and promises in making themselves good or better, and thus living by faith in the Son of God is foolishness to them.

But not so to the poor in spirit. They know they cannot see it in themselves at all to change or to overcome sin: and that is why they are blessed because they are looking upward to God for that hope.

I have come across some that have tried christianity and said it doesn't work: that only means they have never trusted Jesus at His word to do His work in them.

I trust the Father that all those that seek Him, He will draw them unto the Son. Those that continue in His words are His disciples indeed as it is by His grace & His help.

No one that places His hope in Him shall be put to shame.

May the Lord enables us to be faithful witnesses for those that seek Him in a time when faith can be hard to find.

It is absolutely inapproprieate to legalize same sex marriage. The Tanach is absolutely against homosexuality. I don't know what Jesus had to do with it because he did not establish any kind of laws. He came rather to confirm the laws of Moses down to the letter; even to the dot of the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19) Therefore, it is also inappropriate to say that his laws were superior to the Mosaic Law. Besides, notwithstanding the Biblical laws, same sex marriages ara against natural laws and disgusting immoral behaviour.